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Old 01-13-2006, 11:41 AM   #61
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The main thing to remember is it was God in the form of the Holy Spirit that lead to the Bible. The H.S. is God dwelling within us. It's the great Counselor or "guide." It's not like all these people heard a voice telling them what to write.

BVS, I actually agree with your last point. People's individual writing styles and backgrounds are in the Bible. It's not as if every book sounds the same. Each of the Gospels has a different writing style. Some left info out that others put in. That doesn't mean God's guidance in writing them wasn't there.
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Old 01-13-2006, 11:47 AM   #62
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Well, God.

The easy answer is that this is a matter of faith.

There are plenty of academic materials supporting this - the scope of which are certainly beyond this thread. If you are interested, I can forward references to you when I get home tonight.


i suppose what i'm most interested in is seeing if we can get beyond the "God says the Bible is inerrent, and the Bible says that God is inerrent." we've taked about this kind of circular, North Korean logic, "he is great because he leads, and he leads because he is great." which i understand to be a part of faith. i really do. and i am not comparing God/Jesus to North Korea.

i am just wondering if it's possible to find some kind of external validation.

i also hope it underscores the point that this undermines any sort of Biblical authority for anyone other than strict believers. it makes the Bible less true, less in errant, more of a text of convenience, in my eyes.

which is fine; it's not necessarily meant for me, at least it's authority isn't meant for me. but it also undermines, for me, things i have heard from other people who might hold beliefs that are against their better judgement, but they must hold them because the Bible tells them to do so. the most obvious example of this would be a friend of mine who's sister is born again -- she has said (and this was before i came out) that she doesn't like thinking that homosexualty is wrong and she has many gay friends, but the Bible tells her it is wrong, and so she feels she must speak out about it whenever she can. which is her right to do so. but if she's pointing to the Bible as the reason, and nothing else, i have every right to tell her to fuck off.

another example might be the idea that there can only be one path to god, and that non-Christians are going to hell.
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Old 01-13-2006, 11:50 AM   #63
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If Scripture isn't inerrant, how can it have any authority? How can you even say that Jesus Christ is God? Christianity can quickly become a social services club or self esteem methodology.


i think this gets at precisely how many have come to understand Christianity, because this is how Christianity functions in the lives of many believers. it looks exactly like a self-esteem methodology (Jesus Loves You! bumper stickers and what not) and the club aspect is reinforced by the interpretation of religion enabling people to feel perfectly good about excluding other groups and deeming themselves superior to other groups (gays, Jews, Muslims, atheists, etc.)
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Old 01-13-2006, 11:56 AM   #64
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It's not like all these people heard a voice telling them what to write.
\


but isn't that exactly what it's like?
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Old 01-13-2006, 12:12 PM   #65
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No. I mean, God can speak to people however he wants, he's God. The Holy Spirit moves by convictions and guidance of your heart, I guess you could say. People often think of God in terms of big, loud, amazing signs. That can happen, but God also works in small, quiet ways.
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Old 01-13-2006, 12:42 PM   #66
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Originally posted by coemgen
No. I mean, God can speak to people however he wants, he's God. The Holy Spirit moves by convictions and guidance of your heart, I guess you could say. People often think of God in terms of big, loud, amazing signs. That can happen, but God also works in small, quiet ways.


as a believer, how would you seek to confirm that the Holy Spirit was working through someone? how would you confirm that someone had, indeed, spoken to God and received (in effect) a message from him? are there criteria to be met? how can you sniff out the sincere from the charlatans?
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Old 01-13-2006, 12:46 PM   #67
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Great question. I'm off to an interview and I'll reply when I get back.

And yes, Robertson fails at meeting some of the criteria.
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Old 01-13-2006, 03:44 PM   #68
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Originally posted by Irvine511

as a believer, how would you seek to confirm that the Holy Spirit was working through someone? how would you confirm that someone had, indeed, spoken to God and received (in effect) a message from him? are there criteria to be met? how can you sniff out the sincere from the charlatans?


Hey Irvine, here's what Paul writes are the "fruits of the spirit," meaning if you truly have the Holy Spirit dwelling within you, these are the results. This is the evidence. I included the first part (19-21) to show some of what is simply referred to as sin, or the "deeds of the flesh," meaning acts that we do on our own, without the Holy Spirit and against God.

Galatians 5:19-23*

*19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

*22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.


As many are claiming, Robertson's claims seem to fall into the "selfish ambition" category. There's no point in saying what he's saying, especially when he's telling the world what (he thinks) God is thinking. It's absurd. It doesn't help the peace process any either, which I would think, goes against the fruits of the spirit -- namely "peace."

Having the Holy Spirit within you is easy -- you just have to accept Christ as your lord and savior. However, the Spirit's presence in you grows stronger the closer you are to God.

As far as knowing if someone has actually gotten something from God in the form of communication, it just has to align with the Bible. There's a LOT of frauds out there, even within "Christianity" (especially within "Christianity"). These people claim God is telling them something, but it might not jive with what the Bible says. They twist the Bible to make it fit their claims too. Benny Hinn is a master at this.
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Old 01-13-2006, 03:46 PM   #69
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Originally posted by Irvine511
i think this gets at precisely how many have come to understand Christianity, because this is how Christianity functions in the lives of many believers. it looks exactly like a self-esteem methodology (Jesus Loves You! bumper stickers and what not) and the club aspect is reinforced by the interpretation of religion enabling people to feel perfectly good about excluding other groups and deeming themselves superior to other groups (gays, Jews, Muslims, atheists, etc.)
Interesting that you say that.

To me, a critical element of basic Christian belief is that we are separated from God because of our sin.


This really doesn't lend itself to "feel good" or superiority beliefs.
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Old 01-13-2006, 03:57 PM   #70
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how can you sniff out the sincere from the charlatans?
you see thieves, dishonesty and treachery everywhere
while you are unaware of God being everywhere
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Old 01-13-2006, 03:59 PM   #71
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^nice, whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
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Old 01-13-2006, 04:41 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Interesting that you say that.

To me, a critical element of basic Christian belief is that we are separated from God because of our sin.


This really doesn't lend itself to "feel good" or superiority beliefs.


your stripe of Christianity doesn't seem to be the of the mainstream -- believe it or not, i do know many different kinds of Christians, from born again to Main Line to the ethnically Catholic to Mormons, and virtually all focus on that feeling of specialness due to being a child of God and being loved by Jesus.

and, yes, i have always felt the presence of implied superiority ... or, perhaps, less superiority, and more pity for others, if not downright fear that friends who aren't christian -- who might be Muslim, or gay -- are going to hell.

perhaps one has to be an observer to notice this.
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Old 01-13-2006, 04:48 PM   #73
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If Scripture isn't inerrant, how can it have any authority? How can you even say that Jesus Christ is God? Christianity can quickly become a social services club or self esteem methodology.
To me it's never been any authority. God is the authority not the Bible and the two are separate.
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Old 01-13-2006, 04:48 PM   #74
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Hey Irvine, here's what Paul writes are the "fruits of the spirit," meaning if you truly have the Holy Spirit dwelling within you, these are the results. This is the evidence. I included the first part (19-21) to show some of what is simply referred to as sin, or the "deeds of the flesh," meaning acts that we do on our own, without the Holy Spirit and against God.

Galatians 5:19-23*

*19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

*22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.



could this be any more vague? can we validate Scripture using something other than Scripture?


[q]As many are claiming, Robertson's claims seem to fall into the "selfish ambition" category. There's no point in saying what he's saying, especially when he's telling the world what (he thinks) God is thinking. It's absurd. It doesn't help the peace process any either, which I would think, goes against the fruits of the spirit -- namely "peace."[/q]

could this not be just as subjective as anything else? is Robertson not necessarily saying that God is speaking through him, but using The Bible as historical precedent to understand why Sharon has had a stroke? if The Bible is filled with stories of God intervening in the lives of powerful men and smiting them when they displease God, is it not perfectly reasonable for someone steeped in the Bible to simply try to understand present-day events in Biblical terms?

after all, it is inerrant, isn't it?



Quote:
Having the Holy Spirit within you is easy -- you just have to accept Christ as your lord and savior. However, the Spirit's presence in you grows stronger the closer you are to God.

As far as knowing if someone has actually gotten something from God in the form of communication, it just has to align with the Bible. There's a LOT of frauds out there, even within "Christianity" (especially within "Christianity"). These people claim God is telling them something, but it might not jive with what the Bible says. They twist the Bible to make it fit their claims too. Benny Hinn is a master at this.

but if the Bible is endlessly interpretable -- i think we can at least agree that a single understanding of the Bible is impossible -- doesn't it then come down to who can best defend their argument? so i could, for example, say that God wants me to kill all left handed people, and if i could prove with Scripture that this Godly commandment was in perfect jive with the Bible, then wouldn't you be unable to disprove me? you'd have to take me at my word, wouldn't you?
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Old 01-13-2006, 04:49 PM   #75
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


you see thieves, dishonesty and treachery everywhere
while you are unaware of God being everywhere



cooooool ...

can i get another hit?




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