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Old 03-28-2003, 08:25 AM   #16
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Here's a piece by Robert Fisk, written 21 March. Very vivid description of what he has seen.

http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=301081

A more recent one: http://argument.independent.co.uk/co...p?story=391165


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Old 03-28-2003, 10:50 AM   #17
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Robert Fisk had an article on the front page of the Independent yesterday. It was very eyecatching because there was no picture, just the beginning of the article printed in large text, and it was absolutely horrifying to read about what he's witnessed in Iraq.
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Old 03-28-2003, 11:13 AM   #18
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This struck me from the first article foray posted:

Quote:
How could one resist it? How could the Iraqis ever believe with their broken technology, their debilitating 12 years of sanctions, that they could defeat the computers of these missiles and of these aircraft? It was the same old story: irresistible, unquestionable power.

Well yes, one could say, could one attack a more appropriate regime? But that is not quite the point. For the message of last night's raid was the same as that of Thursday's raid, that of all the raids in the hours to come: that the United States must be obeyed. That the EU, UN, Nato nothing­ must stand in its way. Indeed can stand in its way.
And the second article is so powerful I'm going to go ahead and post it here in its entirety:

Robert Fisk: 'It was an outrage, an obscenity'
27 March 2003


It was an outrage, an obscenity. The severed hand on the metal door, the swamp of blood and mud across the road, the human brains inside a garage, the incinerated, skeletal remains of an Iraqi mother and her three small children in their still-smouldering car.

Two missiles from an American jet killed them all – by my estimate, more than 20 Iraqi civilians, torn to pieces before they could be 'liberated' by the nation that destroyed their lives. Who dares, I ask myself, to call this 'collateral damage'? Abu Taleb Street was packed with pedestrians and motorists when the American pilot approached through the dense sandstorm that covered northern Baghdad in a cloak of red and yellow dust and rain yesterday morning.

It's a dirt-poor neighbourhood, of mostly Shia Muslims, the same people whom Messrs Bush and Blair still fondly hope will rise up against President Saddam Hussein, a place of oil-sodden car-repair shops, overcrowded apartments and cheap cafés. Everyone I spoke to heard the plane. One man, so shocked by the headless corpses he had just seen, could say only two words. "Roar, flash," he kept saying and then closed his eyes so tight that the muscles rippled between them.

How should one record so terrible an event? Perhaps a medical report would be more appropriate. But the final death toll is expected to be near to 30 and Iraqis are now witnessing these awful things each day; so there is no reason why the truth, all the truth, of what they see should not be told.

For another question occurred to me as I walked through this place of massacre yesterday. If this is what we are seeing in Baghdad, what is happening in Basra and Nasiriyah and Kerbala? How many civilians are dying there too, anonymously, indeed unrecorded, because there are no reporters to be witness to their suffering?

Abu Hassan and Malek Hammoud were preparing lunch for customers at the Nasser restaurant on the north side of Abu Taleb Street. The missile that killed them landed next to the westbound carriageway, its blast tearing away the front of the café and cutting the two men – the first 48, the second only 18 – to pieces. A fellow worker led me through the rubble. "This is all that is left of them now," he said, holding out before me an oven pan dripping with blood.

At least 15 cars burst into flames, burning many of their occupants to death. Several men tore desperately at the doors of another flame-shrouded car in the centre of the street that had been flipped upside down by the same missile. They were forced to watch helplessly as the woman and her three children inside were cremated alive in front of them. The second missile hit neatly on the eastbound carriageway, sending shards of metal into three men standing outside a concrete apartment block with the words, "This is God's possession" written in marble on the outside wall.

The building's manager, Hishem Danoon, ran to the doorway as soon as he heard the massive explosion. "I found Ta'ar in pieces over there," he told me. His head was blown off. "That's his hand." A group of young men and a woman took me into the street and there, a scene from any horror film, was Ta'ar's hand, cut off at the wrist, his four fingers and thumb grasping a piece of iron roofing. His young colleague, Sermed, died the same instant. His brains lay piled a few feet away, a pale red and grey mess behind a burnt car. Both men worked for Danoon. So did a doorman who was also killed.

As each survivor talked, the dead regained their identities. There was the electrical shop-owner killed behind his counter by the same missile that cut down Ta'ar and Sermed and the doorman, and the young girl standing on the central reservation, trying to cross the road, and the truck driver who was only feet from the point of impact and the beggar who regularly called to see Mr Danoon for bread and who was just leaving when the missiles came screaming through the sandstorm to destroy him.

In Qatar, the Anglo-American forces – let's forget this nonsense about "coalition" – announced an inquiry. The Iraqi government, who are the only ones to benefit from the propaganda value of such a bloodbath, naturally denounced the slaughter, which they initially put at 14 dead. So what was the real target? Some Iraqis said there was a military encampment less than a mile from the street, though I couldn't find it. Others talked about a local fire brigade headquarters, but the fire brigade can hardly be described as a military target.

Certainly, there had been an attack less than an hour earlier on a military camp further north. I was driving past the base when two rockets exploded and I saw Iraqi soldiers running for their lives out of the gates and along the side of the highway. Then I heard two more explosions; these were the missiles that hit Abu Taleb Street.

Of course, the pilot who killed the innocent yesterday could not see his victims. Pilots fire through computer-aligned co-ordinates, and the sandstorm would have hidden the street from his vision. But when one of Malek Hammoud's friends asked me how the Americans could so blithely kill those they claimed to want to liberate, he didn't want to learn about the science of avionics or weapons delivery systems.

And why should he? For this is happening almost every day in Baghdad. Three days ago, an entire family of nine was wiped out in their home near the centre of the city. A busload of civilian passengers were reportedly killed on a road south of Baghdad two days ago. Only yesterday were Iraqis learning the identity of five civilian passengers slaughtered on a Syrian bus that was attacked by American aircraft close to the Iraqi border at the weekend.

The truth is that nowhere is safe in Baghdad, and as the Americans and British close their siege in the next few days or hours, that simple message will become ever more real and ever more bloody.

We may put on the hairshirt of morality in explaining why these people should die. They died because of 11 September, we may say, because of President Saddam's "weapons of mass destruction", because of human rights abuses, because of our desperate desire to "liberate" them all. Let us not confuse the issue with oil. Either way, I'll bet we are told President Saddam is ultimately responsible for their deaths. We shan't mention the pilot, of course.
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Old 03-28-2003, 11:16 AM   #19
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Thanks for posting that joyfulgirl. That's the article I was referring to from the Independent...it almost made me cry when I first read it. I can't even start to imagine what people in Baghdad are going through right now.
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Old 03-28-2003, 04:57 PM   #20
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I too wonder what is happening in those cities. In one breath they denounce Saddam's tactic of using civilians and in the next bomb the hell out of them.
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Old 03-28-2003, 06:53 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
I too wonder what is happening in those cities. In one breath they denounce Saddam's tactic of using civilians and in the next bomb the hell out of them.

Please, name out of the over 5,000 military sorties flown, the number of non-military targets that have been hit. Please do not count the market, which looks more and more like one of their "accidental" misses at our planes.
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Old 03-28-2003, 07:41 PM   #22
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Dreadsox,
Quit splitting hairs. I did not state civilian targets. I was commenting on the fact that we are bombing the targets anyway.
Thank You.

edited to say.
I'm starting to think this whole forum should be shut down. There is too much bashing of opposing views and everybody takes offense so easily. Also all it is links to promote one point of view link for the other. Not very constructive. I know I'm guilty of
all three.
I do undertand that it is a very stressful time for us all.
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Old 03-28-2003, 07:44 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
Dreadsox,
Quit splitting hairs. I did not state civilian targets. I was commenting on the fact that we are bombing the targets anyway.
Thank You.
No, but your statement seemed to imply that we are upset that they use the civilians, and that we then turn around and bomb the "Civilians". If I misunderstood, I apologize.

Not splitting hairs. Have seen enough statements here slamming our military to have the right to question. Tired of general statements without supporting facts.

Peace
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Old 03-28-2003, 07:48 PM   #24
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It is good. I think my edit is legitimate.
ei. bashing
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