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Old 01-02-2007, 01:24 PM   #121
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political squabbles can be arranged to make it look like there's is a real difference of opinion or that someone has some power that they don't really have, from the outside. at the end of the day, the part that controls the forces, are in control of the country. the iraqi government does not control the u.s. army.

if the bush government did not want saddam executed, he had not been executed.
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Old 01-02-2007, 01:28 PM   #122
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The past few days I've been thinking about the obituary that appeared in the paper here (Times Of India). I think it is a good two-sided obituary, providing a perspective that some here are completely missing.

Don't cry for him, Iraq
Saddam, a man hanged by a kangaroo court, deserves to be seen in the right perspective

Sometimes the epithets come so easily. Sometimes a life full of meaningful actions can be dismissed in a few meaningless words. Saddam Hussein is gone and we are being told again what he was - a ruthless dictator who ruled Iraq with brutality, a man so cruel that he got his sons-in-law killed when they dared to defect to Jordan, and a bloodthirsty monster who didn't think twice before gassing the northern Kurds and southern Shiite Muslims when they tried to raise a banner of revolt against his tyranny. Sometimes the epithets miss the complete picture. They only tell one side of the story.

President Saddam Hussein was a dictator. There is no doubt about it. But he was just one of the many dictators who called the shots in the Third World during the '70s to '90s. And he was not just a dictator. He was something more than that. In an Arab world clouded in medieval darkness, Hussein created a modern, secular republic. There was no place for religion and religious fundementalism in his country. In his Iraq, women wore skirts and worked in offices and men freely drank in the bars. And fanatics with religious agenda ran away to Iran, taking shelter under an Islamic revolution.

Unlike some of its neighbours, Iraq, under Hussein, never allowed its foreign policy to be guided by religion. On the Kashmir issue, Iraq always backed India at the UN and other international platforms, totally nullifying Pakistan's Islamic card. But he made the mistakes all dictators make - putting personal glory ahead of everything else. During his reign, Hussein's statues and palaces went up in big numbers as large parts of Iraq remained trapped in poverty and bondage. Despite its vast oil and gas resources, Hussein failed to lift the masses out of poverty. And he made the terrible mistake of alienating the country's major ethnic groups.

And, in the early '80s, he made the huge tactical error of trusting the Americans on the issues of the Middle East. The US backed Hussein in his eight-year long war against Islamist Iran. The American ambassador to Iraq gave him a clear go-ahead for invading Kuwait. And when he did so, the Americans moved in on him to neutralise him. With the war with Iran over, Hussein was no longer useful to the US. The invasion of Kuwait was the beginning of the fall of Saddam Hussein. He was demonised by Western leaders after his army invaded the oil kingdom and the Americans launched their first war against the 'dictator'.

Hussein survived George Bush Sr's Gulf war, but it broke his back. With UN sanctions in place, Iraq could never recover from the attack. Amid allegations of stockpiling weapons of mass destruction and supporting Al Qaida's terrorism, came the second Gulf War which made Hussein take shelter in a spider hole. It was all over for him. He was captured and tried by a court that was recognised only by the US and a government backed by the superpower. Now we know that there were no WMDs. We also know that Hussein was not a sponsor of terrorism. Maybe one day we will know whether the gory tales of his dictatorship were indeed true or not.
There is no point in crying for a dead dictator, but a man hanged by a kangaroo court deserves to be seen in the right perspective.
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Old 01-02-2007, 01:31 PM   #123
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Old 01-03-2007, 03:17 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Are you saying Osama and Bush have something in common? Reminds me of the quote "axis of evil".
I wasn't saying that, but yes, I suppose it could be said. Certainly the same mentality could be at work.

However I'm not a big fan of equating Bush and Osama (or Bush and Saddam or saying the U.S. is the "worlds worst terrorist organization." or anything else along those lines) That kind of talk, to me is hyperbolic nonsense and it always irks me when I hear it. (And I say this as someone who feels Bush is one of the worst presidents in our country's history).

Bush and Osama are not in the same league--not in terms of the level of fundamentalist extremism, not in terms of what they are willing to do to achieve their goals, not in terms of their desire to be part of the of the global community.

Think about it. If roles were reversed and Osama was in Bush's shoes what do you think he would have done post 9-11? He would have nuked Afghanistan without a second thought. Bin laden has always held our entire country culpable for the actions of our government--it was why he had no compunctions about attacking the WTC and killing thousands of innocents. Neither Bush nor his administration, as deplorable as they may be, have ever had this attitude. Osama doesn't care one iota if innocents are killed. The U.S. does (even if they do end up killing innocents in the end, this not the state goal of our president or our governmet).

The same is true of Saddam compared to Bush. How would Saddam have dealt with the 2000 election? He would have had Gore murdered! Problem solved. Bush did nothing of the sort.

In my opinion, people who want to say that Bush and Osama et. al are "the same" are no better than left wing versions of Limbaugh, Coulter, and O'Reilly. They're saying things that sound good, and have an emotional pull, but are hardly true.
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Old 01-03-2007, 03:22 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn
The past few days I've been thinking about the obituary that appeared in the paper here (Times Of India). I think it is a good two-sided obituary, providing a perspective that some here are completely missing.

Don't cry for him, Iraq
Saddam, a man hanged by a kangaroo court, deserves to be seen in the right perspective

Sometimes the epithets come so easily. Sometimes a life full of meaningful actions can be dismissed in a few meaningless words. Saddam Hussein is gone and we are being told again what he was - a ruthless dictator who ruled Iraq with brutality, a man so cruel that he got his sons-in-law killed when they dared to defect to Jordan, and a bloodthirsty monster who didn't think twice before gassing the northern Kurds and southern Shiite Muslims when they tried to raise a banner of revolt against his tyranny. Sometimes the epithets miss the complete picture. They only tell one side of the story.

President Saddam Hussein was a dictator. There is no doubt about it. But he was just one of the many dictators who called the shots in the Third World during the '70s to '90s. And he was not just a dictator. He was something more than that. In an Arab world clouded in medieval darkness, Hussein created a modern, secular republic. There was no place for religion and religious fundementalism in his country. In his Iraq, women wore skirts and worked in offices and men freely drank in the bars. And fanatics with religious agenda ran away to Iran, taking shelter under an Islamic revolution.

Unlike some of its neighbours, Iraq, under Hussein, never allowed its foreign policy to be guided by religion. On the Kashmir issue, Iraq always backed India at the UN and other international platforms, totally nullifying Pakistan's Islamic card. But he made the mistakes all dictators make - putting personal glory ahead of everything else. During his reign, Hussein's statues and palaces went up in big numbers as large parts of Iraq remained trapped in poverty and bondage. Despite its vast oil and gas resources, Hussein failed to lift the masses out of poverty. And he made the terrible mistake of alienating the country's major ethnic groups.

And, in the early '80s, he made the huge tactical error of trusting the Americans on the issues of the Middle East. The US backed Hussein in his eight-year long war against Islamist Iran. The American ambassador to Iraq gave him a clear go-ahead for invading Kuwait. And when he did so, the Americans moved in on him to neutralise him. With the war with Iran over, Hussein was no longer useful to the US. The invasion of Kuwait was the beginning of the fall of Saddam Hussein. He was demonised by Western leaders after his army invaded the oil kingdom and the Americans launched their first war against the 'dictator'.

Hussein survived George Bush Sr's Gulf war, but it broke his back. With UN sanctions in place, Iraq could never recover from the attack. Amid allegations of stockpiling weapons of mass destruction and supporting Al Qaida's terrorism, came the second Gulf War which made Hussein take shelter in a spider hole. It was all over for him. He was captured and tried by a court that was recognised only by the US and a government backed by the superpower. Now we know that there were no WMDs. We also know that Hussein was not a sponsor of terrorism. Maybe one day we will know whether the gory tales of his dictatorship were indeed true or not.
There is no point in crying for a dead dictator, but a man hanged by a kangaroo court deserves to be seen in the right perspective.
There are a couple of key statements in this article that I would question, but I think overall it does provide a very important perspective on Saddam Hussein.

One of the things that we don't like to think about is that the U.S. has long had a history of supporting brutal dictators like Hussein when it serves our national interests to do so. We like to think that the reason we're anti-Hussein is because of his brutality, but really it's because Saddam Hussein was no longer "on our side."
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Old 01-03-2007, 03:31 AM   #126
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and because the even worse enemies, like the sovjet union no longer exists.
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Old 01-03-2007, 12:48 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
There are a couple of key statements in this article that I would question, but I think overall it does provide a very important perspective on Saddam Hussein.
True, same with me (regarding some questionable statements). But as you also say, it provides more than just a one-sided perspective on Saddam Hussein.
I don't consider him a true evil person. Yes, he was a ruthless dictator, but there are so many of them in the world, some even worse (hello North Korea, Iran, Zimbabwe and some other African states (and in a lesser sense also Russia comes to mind)). I certainly consider him less evil than Bin Laden and his Al Qaeda bunch. Those terrorists are only out on our destruction. Saddam's goal was merely to stay in power. In the world he was just a minor player. The invasion, his capture (and probably also his death) made him far more important and influencial than he deserved. And also more than is good for the world.
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Old 01-03-2007, 01:09 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn
In his Iraq, women wore skirts and worked in offices and men freely drank in the bars.
Does the author of this obituary actually think that men were allowed to wear skirts because Saddam cared about women's rights? The man who allowed his sons to rape women left and right on the streets? Ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn
Now we know that there were no WMDs.
We do not know that. What we know is that they have not been found in Iraq yet. To say that "there were no WMD" is a stretch.

Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn
We also know that Hussein was not a sponsor of terrorism.
This is not true. Maybe Saddam wasn't linked to 9/11 but those terrorist training camps in Iraq weren't used as Girl Scout meeting halls. And worse than sponsoring terrorism, Saddam perpetrated terrorism upon his own people.

Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn
Maybe one day we will know whether the gory tales of his dictatorship were indeed true or not.
The mass graves don't tell us that? The eye witness accounts from the people who survived his evil acts don't tell us that?
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Old 01-03-2007, 04:21 PM   #129
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Originally posted by jimmmm
Have any of you stopped for one minute, put your holier than thou attitudes to one side and thought about the sheer horror, pain, misery, & agony that creature inflicted on countless thousands of humans, innocent MEN, WOMEM, & CHILDREN, thousands whose lives were cut short in the most terrible of ways, leaving behind millions of grieving relatives, & friends, whilst he lived life surrounded by luxury the vast majority of people who've ever lived, or ever will live couldn't even begin to dream of.
Certain creatures throughout the history of mankind have commited crimes that have released them from any kind of form of humanity, and that creature is very close to the top of that list, IF, & its a big IF, there's such places as Heaven, & Hell, Satan himself must be feeling very uncomfortable at this moment in time, with that for company!

R.I.P. all the victims of that monster, rot in hell saddam!
Best....Post....Ever

The fact there is actually a RIP thread for that monster is deplorable. Saddam, do NOT Rest In Peace.
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Old 01-03-2007, 04:30 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bonochick
This is a REST IN PEACE thread. Another thread about Saddam's execution already exists:

http://forum.interference.com/t170990.html

If these threads were to be exactly alike, they would be merged. However, I think it's plain to see that they are two different things.
WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO GET PEOPLE TO LISTEN TO A MODERATOR???????
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Old 01-03-2007, 04:36 PM   #131
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Wait...I have an idea...

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