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Old 07-03-2003, 05:17 PM   #46
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4


Because it's using a worse-case scenario, one fraught with loaded images. Your opponent is then forced into a fake stale-mate. It's like bringing out the "n" word when discussing race relations. I think you could do better. But whatever works for you.

Equating God's work in specific circumstances in Jewish history with America in the 20th century is sketchy at best. Unless you want to say that God still speaks to potentates of nations who are unelected and unanswerable to anyone. Anyways, I have had the "just war" debate for the last 5 months or so while at L'Abri and I'm quite tired of it. And it's almost the weekend. So I bid you a nice holiday and if you insist we can pick this up later.
Okey dokey, you have a good 4th, also!
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Old 07-03-2003, 05:21 PM   #47
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IMO bringing up WW2 to justify war on Iraq (which nobody has done specifically in this thread, but have done frequently in the past) is a poor debating tactic because there is no comparison between the two situations. There has been no other war fought in the 20th century in a situation that was in any way comparable to WW2. Just because a person might have believe it was necessary to fight WW2 does not mean the same person believes other wars were justified.

I'm actually not arguing that war is never justified because I don't have a definite opinion on that subject. However, I am arguing that Christianity cannot be used as a justification for war.
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Old 07-03-2003, 05:24 PM   #48
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


God doesn't change.

Our relationship to the law is changed. A person who has accepted the sacrifice of Christ and has made Christ his Savior is no longer under the curse of the law. But as Paul said, that doesn't mean we are free to do whatever we want. It's just that now, Christ lives in us and through us (Christians), and he is our power to do righteous things. In fact, he is the Christian's righteousness.

However, God didn't just change his mind on things.
With the sacrifice made, we no longer have to sacrifice the lamb before God and we no longer are waging wars in his name.
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Old 07-03-2003, 05:27 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees

I'm actually not arguing that war is never justified because I don't have a definite opinion on that subject. However, I am arguing that Christianity cannot be used as a justification for war.
And what I am saying is that Christianity cannot be used as a basis for arguing against war.
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Old 07-03-2003, 05:42 PM   #50
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But your argument for this appears to be that commandments which would seem to oppose violence are applicable to individuals but not to countries or governments.

This raises two questions for me:
Firstly - how do you know this is the case? I've read the part of the Bible you are quoting here and I don't understand how you've come to the conclusion that it doesn't apply to countries or governments only to individuals.
Secondly - would it therefore be okay for countries or governments to kill or lie or steal and there could be no argument against this based on Christianity?
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Old 07-03-2003, 06:22 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
Bama, I think you're putting words in people's mouths. While hopefully none of us would advocate the sort of theocracy that many on the far right dream of, it's an undeniable fact of life that one's personal beliefs influence one's politics and the choices one makes. I'm a Christian and because of that fact I would be inclined to vote against a political party that sees violence as the answer to problems. I fail to see how that has anything to do with the separation of church and state.
Well, I didn't intend to put words in people's mouths, I was just stating what I inferred from your statement:

Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
80s, you are making an assumption that those injunctions are only to apply to persons and not to nations.
and that of BonoVoxSupastar:

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
So you're telling me that with your interpretation of Christ's teachings, these things only apply to individuals. So nations can lie, steal, blaspheme, etc.? This doesn't make sense to me.
It seemed that you and BonoVoxSupastar were trying to convince 80sU2IsBest that nations should follow the teachings of Christ just as Christian individuals should. I can think of numerous other Biblical laws and commandments that people in this forum would NOT think our governments should follow. I just wanted to find out from the two of you if that is what you were favoring.

Have a great Independence Day!

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Old 07-03-2003, 07:10 PM   #52
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It seemed that you and BonoVoxSupastar were trying to convince 80sU2IsBest that nations should follow the teachings of Christ just as Christian individuals should. I can think of numerous other Biblical laws and commandments that people in this forum would NOT think our governments should follow. I just wanted to find out from the two of you if that is what you were favoring.
You are not understanding the point. I'm asking those Christians who believe they can justify this war using scripture, why is it that the teachings of Christ should only apply to the individual and be ignored by nations(especially one ran by a proclaimed born again)? Yet these Christians stand behind such an action. Isn't there a contradiction here? I'm not suppose to act this way as an individual but when my country calls upon me to do this, it's OK...isn't this country before God.
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Old 07-03-2003, 10:13 PM   #53
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Here's what I'm saying:

That when Christ was talking about turning the other cheek, he was referring specifically to interpersonal relationships. We cannot infer from that that it also pertains to the government. And even if it did, it is not a teaching about violence. It is teaching people not to take revenge. Jesus didn't say that violence is never necessary. In fact, when he sent his disciples out 2 by 2, he told them to take their swords. Now why would he do that? So they could cut pineapples open? No, it was so that they could defend themselves.
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Old 07-04-2003, 12:57 AM   #54
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And even if it did, it is not a teaching about violence. It is teaching people not to take revenge.
And where is this line drawn? How much of the war on terrorism is revenge?

Quote:
Jesus didn't say that violence is never necessary. In fact, when he sent his disciples out 2 by 2, he told them to take their swords.
He also says; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword." (Matthew 26:52-53)

And what about Matthew 5:20- "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

This to me shows that while the world continues in sin, those who truly believe will trust completely in God and not in your nation.
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Old 07-04-2003, 02:02 AM   #55
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Good points Disco.
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Old 07-04-2003, 11:24 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


You are not understanding the point. I'm asking those Christians who believe they can justify this war using scripture, why is it that the teachings of Christ should only apply to the individual and be ignored by nations(especially one ran by a proclaimed born again)? Yet these Christians stand behind such an action. Isn't there a contradiction here? I'm not suppose to act this way as an individual but when my country calls upon me to do this, it's OK...isn't this country before God.
Supastar:

I guess I don't really seeing it as "justify(ing) this war using scripture" as much as I see it as (for me personally) the Bible not expressly forbidding military action by governments. And yes, I do think that an individual Christian can support/agree with the military actions of his/her nation and still be a Christian. For example, I have supported military action on several occasions yet I still consider myself a Christian. And I can truly understand a Christian individual who conscietiously objects to serving his country's military based on religious grounds.

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Old 07-05-2003, 01:43 PM   #57
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Sula, I'm not exactly making an assumption, I am reading the passage in context.
That is a dangerous thing to do. Then it cannot be manipulated.
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Old 07-05-2003, 01:47 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
Bama, I think you're putting words in people's mouths. While hopefully none of us would advocate the sort of theocracy that many on the far right dream of, it's an undeniable fact of life that one's personal beliefs influence one's politics and the choices one makes. I'm a Christian and because of that fact I would be inclined to vote against a political party that sees violence as the answer to problems. I fail to see how that has anything to do with the separation of church and state.
Ahhh, but here in FYM, there have been numerous threads criticizing the "religious influence" of Christian's on this administration.

Bama's point is well made. When the administration is too religious, they get bashed, when they are not religious enough they get bashed? Or is it just "THIS" administration that everyone loves to hate?
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Old 07-05-2003, 01:56 PM   #59
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Dread,
I didn't see this thread as being about whether Bush's administration is religious, but rather a discussion about whether Christianity can or should be used as a justification for war. It's not specifically about thet Bush administration if you ask me.
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Old 07-05-2003, 01:57 PM   #60
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PS - it's nice to see you back here.
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