Richard Land

[Dreadsox]

PS - it's nice to see you back here.

I am truly addicted. There were many nights when I was relaxing down on the lake this week, thinking about FYM.

Missed you all too!


Oh....Back to Klaus' letter which started this debate. Commically, you the brilliant community here at FYM have debated point for point, many of the exact things contained in the original letter.

I am finding the turn the other cheek argument in the letter as well as the Hitler argument.

It is quite interesting.

Google does a crummy job translating but here is the link to the email debate by the two religious scholars.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.chrismon.de/ctexte/2003/4/4-begegn.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522Richard%2BLand%2522%2B%2522Huber%2522%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN%26edition%3D

 

[STING2]

Lets look at this on the individual level. Was it a sin according to the Bible for passengers on the Plane that crashed on 911 in Pennsylvania, to use violence to attempt to prevent their own deaths and the deaths of thousands in Washington DC? Is it wrong for a Mother to use violence against a sick man attempting to abduct one of her childern in the middle of the night? Is it wrong for a female jogger to use violence to defend herself from a rapists?

 

[Dreadsox]

[Q]REVEREND LAKE: they say: many convinced Christians are themselves certain that we should not strive the gospel according to for a just peace and around a just war. First of all: the goal of the Bible peace is not ? it is justice. Jesu goal is not is peace, it justice. Therefore it does not concern a peace around each price, but rather around justice. To attend to Saddam Hussein leads to justice. War is cleared up has always a terrible matter, but like John Stuart Mill already many years ago: not always the most terrible.



Jesus said that we should hold out also the other cheek, if we on the one struck become, and that we should retaliate evil with goods. There it addresses us as single. We have not the right in this case to use force to the death. If you kill my wife, I have not the right to kill you. But I have a right to expect that the authorities practices justice, how it stands for example in the Roman letter, chapters 13. The Bible says that God of the authorities applied to punish misdeed and to reward that, that do the right. Therefore I have the right to expect of the authorities that it you kill, that you killed my wife. I believe that the death penalty would be for that appropriate.



Do if many persons say: ?I am am Christian and I against war?, would become I back question: ?well yes, who is already for the war? No one is for the war. War is believe sometimes just only the slighter evil.? I, it gives itself simply too many Christians, whom in that, what one could designate than ?anticipating reconciliation,? to there beginners. They believe that an enemy always can be reconciled ? that he is actual a nice type.



Therewith one underestimates totally the power of the squall. Saddam Hussein is angry. I must quote there Martin Luther King jr., made has the distinction one decisive: ?if your opponent has a conscience, would follow Gandhi into the non-violence. If your enemy has no conscience so like Hitler, Dietrich Bonhoeffer would follow was.? Bonhoeffer a Christian pacifist that came finally to the end that it was its ethical duty as Christian to participate in a plot and an assassination attempt against Hitler. We have not it in Saddam Hussein with an enemy to do, who has a conscience, but rather with a dictator.[/Q]

 

[Dreadsox]

Anyone here who wants to defend that guy or do we agree that he's a religious extremist trying to make politics?

Klaus

I will defend him if I must. I do not agree with everything this man believes in, however, you are calling him an extremist. Having read a crummy translation of the article, I would have to say that Bishop Hubor and Reverend Lake are very respectful of each other in their debate, and hardly extremist.

 

[U2Bama]

Here again, in this forum we use the word "extremist" for effect to diametrically label those with whom we disagree. It's all about the $hock value.

~U2Alabama

 

[pub crawler]

please say you're joking.

There were many nights when I was relaxing down on the lake this week, thinking about FYM.

 

[Dreadsox]

Re: please say you're joking.

 

[Klaus]

Thanks Dreadsox, i allways enjoy it sharing my mind with you

At the beginning Richard Land said that most americans would denie that the Iraq didn't attack the US, he says that Iraqis are Suicidal assassins.
I don't want to comment this too much, i only need this statements so that we can understand his later words better.

The things that make me wonder were the following:
"The goal of the bible isn't peace, it's justice. Jesus goal wasn't peace, it was justice. Because of that it's not our goal to have peace but justice. Caring about Saddam Hussein leads to justice"

I'm maybe not such an bible expert as Mir Land. But as far as i know jesus took the punishment for the whole sins so that god can be just AND he can forgive us.

So if he wants to draw the parallel to Iraq it becomes tricky it would mean something like us-presidential speach:
"we have to punish someone, because of that i take all the punishment - so that it is just. I forgive Mr. Hussein everything he's done to us"

WOW that would be justice like i understood that Jesus preached it.

But Mr. Land tells me that the things Jesus preached is right for a single person (we are not allowed to punish someone personally until he dies) but jesus teachings are wrong for the government (authority). He expects that the authority punishes and kills the sinner who killed his wife.

Since the Government is a sum of humans too imho the teachings of jesus are for them too (as long as they call themself christians).

Klaus
p.s. dreadsox: you're right, he's speaking verry politely to Mr. Huber, but bloodshot eyes aren't a neccesissity for extremists. Even Ossama Bin Laden talks verry kind in lots of his interviews. (no i don't want to compare them, i just wanted to show that the correct forms are good, but don't stop people from being extremists)