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Old 07-03-2003, 03:53 PM   #31
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

The subject of war is never addressed in the New Testament. But Christ does speak against violence and attacking in word and action. Matthew 5:39 Whosoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. This verse teaches to suffer an injustice rather than to demand our rights and perputrate a fight. Christ would want us to live unselfish lives, and not to seek to vindicate our own petty dignity, but return good for evil.

In the garden right before his trial he returned good for evil by healing the servant whose ear had been cut off by Peter's sword. He did not want violence to be inflicted in defending him.
But when Christ talked about "turn the other cheek", he was not talking about war or anything like that. It was on a personal level. The idea was that in your personal life, you are not to take "an eye for an eye". He never said anything either implicitly or directly about war. It's just not in there.

And the reason he din't want violence to be inflicted in his defense wasn't because he didn't think violence was never justified to defend oneself; he rebuked Peter for the same reason he rebuked him when Peter said that he wouldn't let Jesus die - because Peter was standing in the way of God's will and plan for salvation.

And also, you said that war is not of God. Tell that to all the nations that God told David to conquer.
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Old 07-03-2003, 04:00 PM   #32
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80s, you are making an assumption that those injunctions are only to apply to persons and not to nations. The Bible is of course, always interpreted through the lens of the one reading it, but you should at least be able to acknowledge that you're not stating facts. You're stating your interpretation.

It's pretty common knowledge that the "just war" theory was developed later in Christian history by Augustine to justify participating in wars of the time. Whether or not that development was true to the Biblical text is something to be debated. But it's definitely not a given.
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Old 07-03-2003, 04:21 PM   #33
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But when Christ talked about "turn the other cheek", he was not talking about war or anything like that. It was on a personal level. The idea was that in your personal life, you are not to take "an eye for an eye". He never said anything either implicitly or directly about war. It's just not in there.
I believe I said in my post that war was never mentioned in the New Testament.

So you're telling me that with your interpretation of Christ's teachings, these things only apply to individuals. So nations can lie, steal, blaspheme, etc.? This doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 07-03-2003, 04:30 PM   #34
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So are y'all suggesting that the government of the United States begin taking actions based on what the Bible says? That the government should implement some type of Christian law, like a theocracy? That wouldn't be fair to followers of other religions, and it would probably violate the establishment clause of the First Amendment.

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Old 07-03-2003, 04:35 PM   #35
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So are y'all suggesting that the government of the United States begin taking actions based on what the Bible says? That the government should implement some type of Christian law, like a theocracy? That wouldn't be fair to followers of other religions, and it would probably violate the establishment clause of the First Amendment.

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Please read my post again Bama. I said Politics and Religion can't mix, not today. I'm just sick of Christians trying to justify this war with scripture.
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Old 07-03-2003, 04:41 PM   #36
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Bama, I think you're putting words in people's mouths. While hopefully none of us would advocate the sort of theocracy that many on the far right dream of, it's an undeniable fact of life that one's personal beliefs influence one's politics and the choices one makes. I'm a Christian and because of that fact I would be inclined to vote against a political party that sees violence as the answer to problems. I fail to see how that has anything to do with the separation of church and state.
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Old 07-03-2003, 04:43 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
80s, you are making an assumption that those injunctions are only to apply to persons and not to nations. The Bible is of course, always interpreted through the lens of the one reading it, but you should at least be able to acknowledge that you're not stating facts. You're stating your interpretation.
Sula, I'm not exactly making an assumption, I am reading the passage in context. In that passage in Matthew he is speaking about personal behavior in relationships.
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Old 07-03-2003, 04:54 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I believe I said in my post that war was never mentioned in the New Testament.

So you're telling me that with your interpretation of Christ's teachings, these things only apply to individuals. So nations can lie, steal, blaspheme, etc.? This doesn't make sense to me.
No, that's not what I'm saying in all cases, but in this case, he was specifically speaking about people's interpersonal; relationships, and how to handle oneself in certain situations.

A nation sometimes has to wage war. And what really doesn't make sense to me is that people are always saying that Christianity and war never mix, when there is no Biblical basis for that whatsoever.
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Old 07-03-2003, 04:56 PM   #39
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
I'm a Christian and because of that fact I would be inclined to vote against a political party that sees violence as the answer to problems.
Sula, I am a Christian also, and I'd like to ask you a question:

How would you have handled Hitler? Sanctions?
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Old 07-03-2003, 05:01 PM   #40
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

Sula, I am a Christian also, and I'd like to ask you a question:

How would you have handled Hitler? Sanctions?
That's the usual one that "just war" theorists like to throw out there, although quite frankly I think it's a poor debating tactic

Honestly, I can't say for sure because I wasn't there. But one thing is for certain. If I decided that fighting against Hitler was necessary, I would count it as a necessary evil and not something blessed, demanded or sanctioned by God. And I would expect to be judged for the lives that I took.
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Old 07-03-2003, 05:05 PM   #41
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4


That's the usual one that "just war" theorists like to throw out there, although quite frankly I think it's a poor debating tactic
Don't just "tsk" me, explain it to me. Why is it a "poor debating tactic"? It's not like I made WW2 up. It happened. So, what is wrong with that as a debating tactic?

And also, if God is against war at all times, why did he order not only David but Joshua and Gideon and others to wage war?
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Old 07-03-2003, 05:09 PM   #42
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And what really doesn't make sense to me is that people are always saying that Christianity and war never mix, when there is no Biblical basis for that whatsoever.
Well this is where you and I will disagree. But you can't speak in absolutes, neither you nor I have the perfect interpretations of Christ's word.
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Old 07-03-2003, 05:12 PM   #43
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And also, if God is against war at all times, why did he order not only David but Joshua and Gideon and others to wage war?
Did things not change with the New Testament?
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Old 07-03-2003, 05:15 PM   #44
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Don't just "tsk" me, explain it to me. Why is it a "poor debating tactic"? It's not like I made WW2 up. It happened. So, what is wrong with that as a debating tactic?

And also, if God is against war at all times, why did he order not only David but Joshua and Gideon and others to wage war?
Because it's using a worse-case scenario, one fraught with loaded images. Your opponent is then forced into a fake stale-mate. It's like bringing out the "n" word when discussing race relations. I think you could do better. But whatever works for you.

Equating God's work in specific circumstances in Jewish history with America in the 20th century is sketchy at best. Unless you want to say that God still speaks to potentates of nations who are unelected and unanswerable to anyone. Anyways, I have had the "just war" debate for the last 5 months or so while at L'Abri and I'm quite tired of it. And it's almost the weekend. So I bid you a nice holiday and if you insist we can pick this up later.
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Old 07-03-2003, 05:16 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Did things not change with the New Testament?
God doesn't change.

Our relationship to the law is changed. A person who has accepted the sacrifice of Christ and has made Christ his Savior is no longer under the curse of the law. But as Paul said, that doesn't mean we are free to do whatever we want. It's just that now, Christ lives in us and through us (Christians), and he is our power to do righteous things. In fact, he is the Christian's righteousness.

However, God didn't just change his mind on things.
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