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Old 07-01-2003, 12:01 PM   #16
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P.S. FYM does seem a better place for this now it's escalated into a debate.
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Old 07-01-2003, 12:12 PM   #17
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Fizz. you pretty much summed up what I would have said.
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Old 07-01-2003, 01:05 PM   #18
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Should we seperate this thread? It seems like we have two totally unrelated subjects going on here, both which are interesting.
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Old 07-01-2003, 03:47 PM   #19
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Disco, I'm not sure I'd blame the divorce rate or other modern problems on feminism. I don't think giving women equal rights is bad for society. Why throw away half of the talent a society has by mandating, in one way or another, that all women get married and be subservient to their husbands? I mean, heck, it used to be perfectly OK for men to beat their wives. Now it's not. I personally have two divorced siblings. I can't tell you why they got divorced except that both relationships went to hell in a haybasket.
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Old 07-01-2003, 03:50 PM   #20
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to what verte said.
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Old 07-01-2003, 04:09 PM   #21
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I don't think we can split it and have both threads make sense.
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Old 07-01-2003, 04:12 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
I don't think we can split it and have both threads make sense.
that was my thought too.
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Old 07-01-2003, 04:51 PM   #23
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80sU2isBest:

I'm sorry - i didn't want to offend anyone by posting this one in the "The Goal Is Soul" forum - i didn't read:

"This is a general discussion area about U2 and their faith as found in their lyrics, their own words, as well as books written by others on this subject of their spirituality. Not to be used as a platform for debates on religion."

I just thought it would fit in there after i read the other threads for quite some time.

Discoteque:
I asked the magazine for the english e-mails since i'm too lazy to translate all 4 pages to english and i couldn't find the english version on the web.

but here some freely translated parts:
Quote:
The goal in the bible is not peace, it's justice. Jesus goal wasn't peace it was justice....
Then he said that "Matthäus 5, Vers 38 ff:" was only for individual humans, not for governments (so i assume a president is not human) And because of Mathew 5,38 we don't have the right to use force until we kill the other (but when we don't kill him it's ok to beat him up?)

And he used Romans, Chap 13 to justify.. no not only to justify murder by governments. He said that he "expects it from the country that they kill the ones who kill"
He was just talking in black and white, didn't accept any grey in this world. For me this is the view of a extremist.

So.. what i found out that not only in history, but also today christianity is abused (like Islam) by some people. They don't want to spread the "good news", they want to use the church to transport their prejudgements.
Or to say it with Bono's words:
"They want the kingdom, but they don't want god in it"


Quote:
I feel sorry for men in today's society. I think they are so confused, frustrated and angry about what it really means to BE a man today
At least i'm neither confused nor frustrated. I'm happy to live in todays world..
..for example because a women who shares her life with me does it because she loves me, not because she has to (out of economical or social presure)

Read Romans 12,10:
Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.

respect, love and support is not a oneway street - both sides should do this - because they love each other. A relationship (like described in the bible) is no fight about the role of a master and a servant.

FizzingWhizzbees: *lol* good answers

*irony on* you didn't know it yet? Women are on this world just to iron our shirts *irony off*

Klaus

p.s. sulawesigirl4: my reason not to post it into the FYM was that i didn't want to start a pro/anti war discussion in general (that's why i didn't quote what R.L. said about G.W.B.), but a thoghts based on the bible pro/contra killing. but anyway - the new direction of this thread is interesting too
p.p.s. i couldn't send you a pm because i'm no premium member, i can't send you an e-mail because i don't have your e-mail address, i can't receive e-mails because the admin here messed it up
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Old 07-01-2003, 05:22 PM   #24
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You can find some articles written by Mr. Land on Belief.net. Most of them are political and IMO not that biblicly based. I didn't run across anything that wasn't too far from the normal Southern Baptist, not to say I don't think that the Southern Baptist aren't a little extreme.

I still stand by the belief that I don't think you can back up any act of war or violence with the teachings of Christianity.

And as far as the comments made on the equality of men and women. Men have decided to manipulate the word of God to fit their own fears of inferiority. It's done everyday.

My wife is much more talented and stronger than I am at many things in our marriage, and I don't think God wants me to make her sit back so I could attempt these things, when she could do a much better and efficient job than I can, just because I was born with testicles.
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Old 07-01-2003, 05:28 PM   #25
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Klaus, I know you weren't trying to be out of line, I just thought it might fit better in FYM. And I'd welcome an email from you. You can reach me at this address .
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Old 07-01-2003, 05:58 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Discoteque
Women were made to give their husbands advice, respect, love and support, and men are commanded by God to "love their wives as Christ loved the church" (meaning the body of believers). That is a very important part of the equation that people seem to have a hard time remembering after they hear the term "subservient", but they go hand in hand.
I'm a woman and I don't believe I was made for that purpose at all. I admit I'm more than a little disturbed by the statement, but perhaps it is just me.
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Old 07-02-2003, 09:04 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
you can back up any act of war or violence with the teachings of Christianity.
Christ never spoke against war.

Sometimes war is necessary. We just might be under Nazi rule right now if several countries hadn't decided that war was justifiable.
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Old 07-03-2003, 12:26 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Christ never spoke against war.
The subject of war is never addressed in the New Testament. But Christ does speak against violence and attacking in word and action. Matthew 5:39 Whosoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. This verse teaches to suffer an injustice rather than to demand our rights and perputrate a fight. Christ would want us to live unselfish lives, and not to seek to vindicate our own petty dignity, but return good for evil.

In the garden right before his trial he returned good for evil by healing the servant whose ear had been cut off by Peter's sword. He did not want violence to be inflicted in defending him.

Quote:
Sometimes war is necessary. We just might be under Nazi rule right now if several countries hadn't decided that war was justifiable. [/B]
Now I agree with this. I'm not saying that the teachings of Christ are easy and by no means have I been able to turn the other cheek every time. But this is exactly why Christ could never be the head of a country. You can't mix the teachings of Christ with modern politics. All I'm saying is don't use the bible or religion to justify this or any war. War is not of God. War is of man.
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Old 07-03-2003, 12:37 AM   #29
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Well said : Frizz - verte76 - BVSS - and anitram. Couldn't have said it better, or as well, myself.
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Old 07-03-2003, 05:29 AM   #30
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80sU2isBest:
The question is...
...if you trust in god, do you think that god could have brought down the Hitler regime without WW II?

And yes, i'm glad that the Russians, the Americans the French and the British fought against the Nazi regime. I don't now anyone who'd like the 3rd reich ruling the world.

But of course not every war was against someone like hitler and people love to compare every situation they don't like to the 3rd Reich. I even remember that a famous politican from the mid-east compared amnesty international to the hitlerjugend (the youth organisation of the 3rd reich which recuted the people for grown up institutions like the SS)

Klaus
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