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Old 01-12-2003, 10:56 PM   #16
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Originally posted by sharky
If the record industry is hurting so much, how were they able to sell 4 million copies of Avril Lavigne's album? 5 million 8 Mile soundtracks? The record industry cares way to much about making a quick buck and not enough on cultivating an act. And when the boy band phenomenon starts to fizzle, they blame file sharing.
Isn't that the truth? The fall of Britney Spears and the boy bands both rose and fell much like their ill-fated predecessors (remember New Kids on the Block?) in the days before the commercialized internet and file sharing. File sharing is just a convenient scapegoat for the fact that music has fallen flat in terms of talent and creativity.

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Old 01-12-2003, 10:58 PM   #17
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Bonoman has a point which the recording industry picked up on surprisingly. There are some New artists that the labels have tried to promote by selling their CDs for $9.99. In the case of The Vines, it put them within the top ten album sales its debut week and it was the band's debut album. People will buy albums when they are priced reasonably.

As for ripping CDs, if I want to transfer a CD to MP3 files to make it easier to transport music on a laptop during a business trip or an MP3 player when I ride the subway, why shouldn't I have that right? I bought the copyrighted product for my own use.

And as for ripping off artists, that's the label not me. If you look at a band's assets, you will see that artists don't make money off of their CDs. In fact, in some cases they only get a penny a song which would be 15 cents an album. [the rest goes to the record company]. Bands make most of their money touring when they take a larger chunk of profits from the sale of tickets and shirts that the label doesn't have a hand in.
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Old 01-13-2003, 12:09 AM   #18
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sharky,

You made some very interesting points. People often do not realize that selling CD's is not very profitable for the artists. Record companies keep most of the profits, which is why we often see artists suing their labels after they feel slighted.

Your point about touring being the real money maker was exactly right. Even U2, who happen to have an amazing record contract with Polygram, makes far more money from the $150 Gold Circle tickets than any $15 CD. There has to be a fundamental shift in the paradigm of the music business, where artists view touring as their primary revenue source, instead of the quick dollar from the hit single. Online music destroys the incentive to utilize just one catchy pop song to launch a career because when an artist has only one good song, people will simply download it, instead of wasting their money on a CD with 12 tracks of filler.

Also, to have a great live act, an artist must be able to offer more than one great song and the musical talent to be able to perform without excessive studio production. Thus, such a shift toward touring would result in both a better overall musical product (i.e., a CD with more than one good song is of higher value and more worthy of the price), and more money for talented artists who are able to play well live.

Ultimately, a live show experience cannot be duplicated, no matter how well the recording equipment functions. There is an element of presence that even virtual reality cannot yet match.

It is my hope that the current trend toward online music forces the business to move in the direction of touring, lowering CD prices, and promoting bands with real talent.


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Old 01-13-2003, 12:09 AM   #19
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Royalty rates vary widely. U2 makes 25% of the marked list price, so its not true that artist only make a penny per song. Some might, but most make more than that.

I don't like most of the music out there as well, but I think thats besides the point. The Music business did not start to decline until 2001. That was the first year that the music industry failed to sale as much or more albums than the prior year in nearly 20 years.

CDs are not overpriced unless you think CDs, and before that records or cassettes, years ago were overpriced. When adjusted for inflation, your 20 dollar CD today cost just as much as it did in 1988 when you adjust for inflation.

I agree that powerful music is strong enough to survive and there are certainly some artist that would be strong enough to get by with just their live show, but they are the lucky exception and not the rule. There is a lot of talent out there that simply won't be able to break out of their local area no matter how good they are without a record deal and record company support. Concerts are important but there is really no substitute for radio and distribution, helped with or provided by record companies.

Honestly though, I would hope that the two could co-exist. I think though that the record companies will succeed in encrypting current product and will be able to maintain their profit and ability to sign and distribute more artist.

There is nothing they can really do about file sharing and product that is already out there, but in 5 years, I think all CDs will be encrypted so you will not be able to make duplicates or perhaps it will be a copy that is of a much reduced quality.

They have to find a way to protect their product, otherwise the music industry will disappear. The vast majority of people who get a product for free through the interenet, are not about to then run to the store to buy the same thing at list price. For most people that would not make any sense. Thats why the record industries days are numbered if they don't encrypt new product.
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Old 01-13-2003, 12:15 AM   #20
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Sting,

As long as there is a digital output, no amount of encryption can prevent the online distribution of music. As long as I flow the super encrypted CD through my stereo, it can be copied into an MP3 file, whiich can be traded all over the net. Record companies can try to slow down the alleged problem, but their attempts are likely to be futile and their victories Pyrrhic.

They must think about the future with these realities in mind.


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Old 01-13-2003, 12:33 AM   #21
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First off, you can't encrypt a CD. That would require changing the player to decrypt the CD, and since existing ones don't have decrypters, it won't happen. Any copy protection on CD-DAs will fail flat out--the marker on the edge is a perfect example.

If they wish to have encryption, they'll have to convince us all to migrate to a new medium, such as DVD audio.

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Old 01-13-2003, 02:28 AM   #22
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You guys said it. No matter how much encrypting there will always be a way or a way will be found to break it.

Sting your comparison with U2 getting 25% isnt very good. How many bands out there still make cds and have a following like U2. I would estimate upwards of 15-20 acts can demand what U2 demands. You saying that our 20$ now is worth what a cd or record ws worth ten or twenty years ago is correct but in my opinion the quality of music is nowhere near comparisson. The music industry today is filled with one hit wonders and short carrer spans.

Though 20$ isnt that expensive they must react to the market. If the market is not willing to pay that much because the product can be aquired for cheaper then you have to respond. Such as U2 offering a DVD accompainingment. This is reactionary, what the MI must do is be pro active rather then what they have done in the last 5-7 yrs. They should seen this problem coming and prevented it but they waitied till it got out of hand and are only now trying to abolish it.

Without a doubt in my mind file-sharing will never stop. The record compainies have waiting too long to react and now they will suffer financialy. What they must do now is turn their marketing stratagies around and use the internet to get artists known to the prospective buyers.

And the old arguement that ppl in MI get paid too much can be attributed here as well. The RIAA says that its not about money its about copyright, well if they really mean this then why do they not drop prices to 10$ a cd? If your product isnt in high demand you must drop your price. I'm sure we all familar with supply and demand, well maybe the RIAA should look at this again instead of looking like a stubborn old man.
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Old 01-13-2003, 04:46 AM   #23
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Man, STING2, your post sucks.

No fucking musician ever gets time to develop his art over a few albums no more.

mp3s have lower quality than CDs, so they suffer degradation. compare the way data is stored, and you know what I mean. Home taping can be compared, bc when THAT started off, ppl didnīt care about hiss.
Album sales arenīt down bc there is file sharing, but bc the industry is managed by idiots, except of a very few, and they go off the majors and do their own labels.

Music thats put out today sucks and sounds all the same (except for U2 and a handful of other artists, i mean generally). This is why ppl donīt buy CDs no more. CD prices should be around 10$, then sales would rise. The Internet is the very best way for new artists to promote themselves.

New music is put on the net everyday. Without that possibility, 90 percent new music wouldnīt be out there. Look at the roster of major labels. A very small part of artists gets a rec contract, and that is not decided upon talent - 20 years ago it was, now its about who sucks which dick.

How come that the gifted musicians youīre talking about actively promote their internet sites where you can download their creations.

I agree that there is a copyright problem w file sharing/ income for the composer, but we canīt change that no more and future will tell what new forms of copyright or salary or protection can be implemented without hurting the artists/ composers rights. Sure enough everyone thinks that copyrighted CDs suck big time, donīt affer any solution for the future (just use a marker).

There is no substitute for the majors ability to distribute, right, w promo its a tough game anyway... every time a song is played on the radio, payola, which can be deducted from the artists or composers profit bc those invests are recoupable from future profits in standard recording contracts.

If U2 were a new band in todays music scene, they wouldnīt get a contract, thats for sure. Not streamlined, bubblegum, pop enough. Not enough sex and sex sells, the lyrics having a message... duh! Every A&R would take a step back. U2 would probably have their own website or an independent.

When U2 were discovered, the MI was way different. Chris Blackwell is/was one of the greats in this industry, because heīs got ears. The industry is deaf.

Compare it with a company that wants to produce contact lenses, but 95% of its employees are blind.

Stuck in a moment.

About everyone knows the arguments I am bringing up. its boring, so i will not engage in this discussion anymore. If you have any creative idea, I would be happy to hear about it.


Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
#1 Home taping with cassettes either from radio or CD or other cassette cannot be compared to the file sharing and burning of CDs which does not suffer from any degradation of quality in the process. Thats the key difference and a major reason why its so popular and having an effect on the music industry. Album sales are down by 10% from last year, a massive drop. The fact that there are artist that are immune out there to these effects at this point is not relevant. It is easy to see what could happen if things continue in this direction.

This is about the right of someone to be able to sell and profit from a product they have created. If I were able to duplicate any product or service on the planet and then offer it for free, I would have the capability to destroy any business on the planet.

Thats not fair and will hurt new music. What incentive will new artist have to try and make it in the music business if there is a dramatically smaller possibility that they will be able to make any profit.

I don't wan't to see gifted musicians and people robbed of the profits of their hard work. If you think that the new music that comes out now is bad, wait to you have 10 years of file sharing with nothing to defend against it. There is no point in most people going out and purchasing a product if in a few years at the click of a mouse, they can get it for free. There is no point in new musicians and artist pursuing a career in the music business if there is no profit. The result will be that new talent will dry up and will be left with a group of popular older artist who are immune from everything and have large devoted fan bases who will buy anything their favorite artist come out with. But even they will sell less than they use to.

The recording industry has played a vital role in bringing many great artist over the years to millions of people. There is no substitute for their ability to promote and finance and distribute and artist around the world. Without the help of Island Records, we may never of had the opportunity to hear U2.
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Old 01-13-2003, 05:07 AM   #24
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For those who care: the original hack

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[Search] This site contains nothing worthily to search for ;p



· RIAA - 0wn3d by.... ;p
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Old 01-13-2003, 05:13 AM   #25
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Maurice Gibb, RIP
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Old 01-13-2003, 10:14 AM   #26
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Quote:
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Give Gordon Sumner an acoustic guitar and let him sing in Roxanne or Spirits in a Material World in a coffee house in L. A or N. Y. That is all it would take for him to be on his way being a number one artist.
i love gordy.

i can't believe this happened AGAIN!!! when i saw it the other day (i didn't see it till after they took it down, but someone did a screen cap and such) i cracked up. adding the file sharing programs TO the website was the midas touch.

btw, does anyone remember the previous hackings, like in the summer? when they happened, their site didn't even have a password to change the html documents! what morons the riaa are!
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Old 01-13-2003, 03:08 PM   #27
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HIPHOP,



People did care about the degradation back when home tapping came out which is why it was never viewed as a substitute for going out and buying the album.

The ability to download and burn to CD, a perfect undegraded copy of the music is what is starting to hurt the industry.

People here I think are missing the point. There is no incentive for a consumer to go out and purchase a product that they can get for free without leaving their house. Charging 1982 prices would today simply be unprofitable and would not change the minds of people that are getting the product for free.
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Old 01-13-2003, 03:17 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
People did care about the degradation back when home tapping came out which is why it was never viewed as a substitute for going out and buying the album.

The ability to download and burn to CD, a perfect undegraded copy of the music is what is starting to hurt the industry.
Actually, I would say that this is incorrect. Looking back to the 1970s and 1980s, the dominant media for music were vinyl and cassettes. To make a copy of an album via cassette was certainly as acceptable as the vinyl or original cassette; all were analog media anyway.

Secondly, to imply that MP3s are "undegraded" copies of CDs is wrong. Quality is degraded; an MP3 is not the same as the 16-bit stereo sound of a CD, as it is a loss compression standard. Certainly ask the SHN (a lossless compression standard) people what they think of MP3s versus CD audio, and they'll resoundingly hate MP3s.

Piracy ultimately outlines that if an industry is anti-competitive (it is my view that the music industry operates more like an oligopoly), people will always find a way around it.

Melon
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Old 01-13-2003, 03:59 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
People did care about the degradation back when home tapping came out which is why it was never viewed as a substitute for going out and buying the album.

The ability to download and burn to CD, a perfect undegraded copy of the music is what is starting to hurt the industry.

People here I think are missing the point. There is no incentive for a consumer to go out and purchase a product that they can get for free without leaving their house. Charging 1982 prices would today simply be unprofitable and would not change the minds of people that are getting the product for free.
I don't have time to counter all the arguments (have to finish a thesis... now!). Over the last I've collected some links/articles about downloading and (what's wrong with) the music industry. I suggest you take a look at them (this includes the viewpoint of a relatively well-known artist).

- Study: File sharing boosts music sales
http://news.com.com/2100-1023-898813.html

- Janis Ian: "THE INTERNET DEBACLE - AN ALTERNATIVE VIEW"
http://www.janisian.com/article-internet_debacle.html

- Janis Ian: "FALLOUT - a follow up to The Internet Debacle"
http://www.janisian.com/article-fallout.html

- The Recording Industry is Trying to Kill the Goose That Lays the Golden Egg
http://www.bricklin.com/recordsales.htm

Especially the second article by Janis Ian gives a nice viewpoint. After she started offering free downloads on her site her merchandising (including albums) rose with 300% (in a single month). Oh and she confirms that most artists always needed to tour to make money (not from selling CD's)

C ya!

Marty

P.S. On my laptop at work I had two other interesting articles. One reporting that the year after Napster the RIAA had the same revenues as the year before Napster (but this article has become a bit obsolete by the Goose and Golden Egg article above). The other article (or rather, now-broken link) was about how a record company (IIRC Warner's) spend $2 million to create another teeny popper artist, only to sell only 600 copies of her debut album. (Interesting follow-up on a message board: the week after the article was published in the Wall Street Journal she still only sold 128 copies).
P.P.S. Got that Napster article!
http://slashdot.org/articles/02/02/27/0213252.shtml
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Old 01-13-2003, 04:05 PM   #30
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Yes, Popmartijn, the article "The Interent Debacle" is great.

Great to see youīre working on your thesis.
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