revising my opinion on the war

[Klaus]

STING2:

ok, if you compare the sum of 24 years to the few months where the US troops are there you might be right, but if i don't missinterpret the reports the rapes/month got higher - otherwise there wouldn't be that fear in the public.

Rono:

Bombing people with depleted amunition and cluster bombs are no mistakes, that are warcrimes.

I agree 100%

And to the Hunting of the Baath loyalists a story from the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/22/international/worldspecial/22BAAT.html?th

In Search for Baath Loyalists, U.S. Finds Itself in Gray Area
By AMY WALDMAN

BAGHDAD, Iraq ? Ahmad Saleh al-Wan says he languished for 15 years in an Iranian prison, a foot soldier in Iraq's unwinnable war against its neighbor. When he came home in 1997, his eyesight ruined, Saddam Hussein gave him his reward: he was made a "group" member in the Baath Arab Socialist Party, the vehicle for Mr. Hussein's rise to power and his grip on it. An honor, the rank more importantly meant higher pay for Mr. Wan in his job at a government printing plant.

But six years later, Mr. Hussein is gone, the Americans are here, and the reward that was meant to ease Mr. Wan's life has, he says, ruined it.

Under a policy to "de-Baathify" Iraq imposed in May by L. Paul Bremer III, the American administrator, all public employees with the rank of group or above in the party have lost their jobs. Like many of his former colleagues, Mr. Wan, 51, is applying for an exemption. But for now, he says he has no way to support his five children. Gaunt and unkempt, he comes to the printing plant and hangs about like a ghost....

(a 3 page story)

Klaus

 

[Scarletwine]

"The coalition did not remove Saddam for any price. The number of Iraqi civilians killed as a result of the war was less than 1,400. This is rather tiny compared to the lives that Saddam would take in any given year."

The statistics I saw on Iraqi civilians deaths to date is about 7100. Much higher than your estimate. The effects of war do not instantly stop when the last bomb is dropped.

"Thats incorrect. There is currently no evidence that proves that depleted uranium used on the battlefield has caused any civilian or military personal side effects."

There are numerous experts that do find evidence of the toxicity of DU, especially in the dust released on impact.

"Unexploded shells and bombs can be a probably and this is not something exclusive to cluster bombs. Every country on the planet has a certain number of bombs and shells that do not detonate when they are supposed to."

But other countries have banned the use of clusters except the US & UK. They have also signed the Land Mine Treaty. Not us though, we may need to kill one more child to keep America safe.

"A war crime is the targeting and killing of innocent civilians. The first case above is an unproven allegation, the second is an accident."

The first can be proven just not accepted by the military, cause what will they do with all that DU if it's not used. The second is not an accident, we purposely used cluster bombs knowing they don't all explode on impact. I agree with Klaus and Rono - they are war crimes and Human Rights violations.

 

[STING2]

Klaus,

"ok, if you compare the sum of 24 years to the few months where the US troops are there you might be right, but if i don't missinterpret the reports the rapes/month got higher - otherwise there wouldn't be that fear in the public."

No, I'd say that Saddams security services raped more people in any given month than were raped at random in Iraq by non-government people. Again, this was standard procedure for Saddam's security services to do this on a regular basis to large numbers of people.


"And to the Hunting of the Baath loyalists a story from the NY Times:"

Always interesting to see how people ignore the crimes of Saddam and the suffering of millions of his people in order to try to paint US policy as wrong or evil. This is crap reporting from the NY times. Nevermind that the man would not have his injuries if Saddam had not launched his stupid and unjust war against Iran which risked the entire security of the Persian Gulf region because he almost lost completely.

 

[Klaus]

Sting2: they just say that there are more raped women and girls, noone mentioned that it was just the US military who raped them - sorry if i couldn't point that out in my first posting.

We both agree that it was Saddams fault that this man is crippeled, it would be wonderful if he would finaly get justice in the ICC for his warcrimes and crimes aganst mankind. But.. it dosn't make it better if the current occupiers of Iraq punish these people who suffered under S.H. i just wanted to show you that not every member of the Baath party was a member because he loved his dictator, some just accepted being in a party becuse of the benifits. So be careful and don't treat every baath member in the way you mentioned they should be treated (earlier in this thread).

Klaus

 

[STING2]

Scarletwine,


"The statistics I saw on Iraqi civilians deaths to date is about 7100. Much higher than your estimate. The effects of war do not instantly stop when the last bomb is dropped."

It is most likely that the statistics I reported of 1,400 deaths are in fact to high. In addition, my friends were deeply involved in the fighting throughout Iraq and saw most of the area's where heavy fighting took place. From they have seen, there was little damage to civilian buildings and people and from what they have seen, it does not support estimates that report losses greater than 1,400. In any event, even if the 7,100 figure were correct, it is a tiny fraction of the number of civilians that are murdered by Saddam in any given year. The fact remains that the war saved far more lives than it too.

"There are numerous experts that do find evidence of the toxicity of DU, especially in the dust released on impact."

There are numerous things that you are in close proximity to or might breath in that are more toxic than DU. It is true that in unusually large doses, DU could potentially produce side effects, but that holds true for just about any substance. There is no evidence yet, that proves that anyone has suffered any side effects from DU. There are only allegation that have failed to be proven.

The best scientific study on this is still Uranium miners that mined natural uranium and were studied over a 30 year period. Realize that natural uranium, which is twice as radioactive as DU, is present in some concentration every where. Natural Uranium is present in the water and food you drink, it is even present in you.

"But other countries have banned the use of clusters except the US & UK. They have also signed the Land Mine Treaty. Not us though, we may need to kill one more child to keep America safe."

Thats just rubbish and offensive to members of the US military and US government. The fact is that anyone who understands bombs and shells realizes that there are some that do not explode. It is not something that is exclusive to cluster bombs. Unexploded ordanance does not target anyone specifically either. It is a natural problem with any type of explosive.


"The first can be proven just not accepted by the military, cause what will they do with all that DU if it's not used. The second is not an accident, we purposely used cluster bombs knowing they don't all explode on impact. I agree with Klaus and Rono - they are war crimes and Human Rights violations."

First, there is no scientific study yet that proves beyond all doubt, that anyone in a warzone is actually suffering from the effects of DU. Given the large doses that would be required to experiences any side effects, it is highly unlikely that anyone is suffering from effects caused by DU. Again, I remind of the most extensive study done on the effects of Uranium dusts from the miners who worked with it and breathed it nearly every day for 30 years!

Another thing, the military does not have some need to expend ammonition whether it be depleted uranium or another type. In addition, if it was thought that there were a problem, the Army has large stocks of shells that use Tungsten which can be used. In addition US Abrams Tanks already carry shells that use HEAT warheads along with the rounds that carry DU. HEAT warheads can still accomplish the same objective of destorying enemy armor and bunkers that DU does. In addition, the HEAT round can also be used in a limited way against infantry. DU does have greater penetrative power and slightly greater range and velocity.

"The second is not an accident, we purposely used cluster bombs knowing they don't all explode on impact."

There is not a bomb or shell that has ever been invented in which all that were made exploded on impact. The 190 countries that have bombs or shells of some type know this.

 

[STING2]

Klaus,

"they just say that there are more raped women and girls, noone mentioned that it was just the US military who raped them - sorry if i couldn't point that out in my first posting."

The US military did not rape anyone. Government sanctioned policy of rape produced more rapes on a monthly basis than random rapes by civilians before and after the war.

"We both agree that it was Saddams fault that this man is crippeled, it would be wonderful if he would finaly get justice in the ICC for his warcrimes and crimes aganst mankind. But.. it dosn't make it better if the current occupiers of Iraq punish these people who suffered under S.H. i just wanted to show you that not every member of the Baath party was a member because he loved his dictator, some just accepted being in a party becuse of the benifits. So be careful and don't treat every baath member in the way you mentioned they should be treated (earlier in this thread)."

Regardless of who the members are and their relationship to Saddam regime, the Baath party must be disbanded and all previledges removed. The man you talk about is not the only one unemployed and out of work. No one deserves to continue to recieve money from a framework set up by Saddam. Its not fair to the millions of people who were raped, murdered, abused by the Baath party for members to still be recieving previledges and pay.

 

[Rono]

A big group is forced into the Baath party,...what should we do with them ?

 

[STING2]

Send them home and no more special pay and privledges.

 

[Klaus]

Sting: i allready quoted an article of a US army scientist months ago in FYM who said that DU ammunition is a danger..
..but of course the Army dosn't like these studys and has other studys, like the Smoking industry had studys for centuries that Smoking is not the reason for Lungcancer.

Up to 10,000 unexploded cluster bombs and bomblets dropped during the war now litter the cities, farmland and roads of Iraq.

That is the real problem of cluster bombs - there are so many bomblets - as you said you can't asure 100% that bombs explode. If you drom verry many small peaces of bombs (cluster bombs) you almost asure that lots of them won't explode - and they will be found by kids playing - they will loose their arms or legs, maybe their lifes.

In the GB-senior Iraq war (desert storm) More than 1,600 Kuwaiti and Iraqi civilians have been killed, and another 2,500 injured, by the estimated 1.2 million explosive cluster bomb duds left following the 1991 Persian Gulf War, which saw the most extensive use of cluster bombs in history. Some 62,000 air-delivered cluster bombs, 100,000 DPICM artillery shells, and 10,000 MLRS rockets were used, containing a total of 24 to 30 million submunitions according to Human Rights Watch.

Also from HRW: http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/arms/cluster-bck1031.pdf

It is noteworthy that during Operation Deliberate Force in Bosnia in 1995, air combat commander Major General Michael Ryan (later U.S. Air Force chief of staff) decided to prohibit the use of cluster bombs, in recognition of the inherent danger to civilians. "The problem was that the fragmentation pattern was too large to sufficiently limit collateral damage and there was also the further problem of potential unexploded ordnance," says one Air Force-sponsored study. During Operation Allied Force in Yugoslavia in 1999, the White House prohibited further use of CBU-87s until technical adjustments could be made, after a cluster bomb malfunction on May 7 killed many civilians.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ calculates the dead civilians in a range from 6000 - 7700. You can browse their database and find out how they got this number.

Klaus

 

[Rono]

It is most likely that the statistics I reported of 1,400 deaths are in fact to high. In addition, my friends were deeply involved in the fighting throughout Iraq and saw most of the area's where heavy fighting took place. From they have seen, there was little damage to civilian buildings and people and from what they have seen, it does not support estimates that report losses greater than 1,400. In any event, even if the 7,100 figure were correct, it is a tiny fraction of the number of civilians that are murdered by Saddam in any given year. The fact remains that the war saved far more lives than it too.

We will never know the real amounth of deads,...the Coalition refuse to do a body count ( esp. the Iraq Soldiers ). No suprise after using all those weapons of mass execution.

There are numerous things that you are in close proximity to or might breath in that are more toxic than DU. It is true that in unusually large doses, DU could potentially produce side effects, but that holds true for just about any substance. There is no evidence yet, that proves that anyone has suffered any side effects from DU. There are only allegation that have failed to be proven.
The best scientific study on this is still Uranium miners that mined natural uranium and were studied over a 30 year period. Realize that natural uranium, which is twice as radioactive as DU, is present in some concentration every where. Natural Uranium is present in the water and food you drink, it is even present in you.

A explosion of a DU bomb with all that dust around without protection has the same effects as eating and drinking.

Thats just rubbish and offensive to members of the US military and US government. The fact is that anyone who understands bombs and shells realizes that there are some that do not explode. It is not something that is exclusive to cluster bombs. Unexploded ordanance does not target anyone specifically either. It is a natural problem with any type of explosive.

Come on, the Coalition do take in acount that there will be a lot of civilions deads if they use that kind of weapons.

There is not a bomb or shell that has ever been invented in which all that were made exploded on impact. The 190 countries that have bombs or shells of some type know this. [/B]

Using ore having is a big difference,..

 

[Rono]

Send them home and no more special pay and privledges.

So there will be a 400.000 men without work and money,..a very US loving group that will be.

 

[STING2]

Klaus,

"Sting: i allready quoted an article of a US army scientist months ago in FYM who said that DU ammunition is a danger.."

His claim is UNPROVEN! It is true that DU in sufficient quantities is a danger but not in the ways many people have alleged. In addition, non-military scientific studies on Uranium miners who breathed in Natural Uranium that is more toxic and radioactive than DU, DID NOT show any health problems. The group was studied for a period of 30 years. Think about it URANIUM MINERS, working and breathing natural uranium dust every day!

"That is the real problem of cluster bombs - there are so many bomblets - as you said you can't asure 100% that bombs explode. If you drom verry many small peaces of bombs (cluster bombs) you almost asure that lots of them won't explode - and they will be found by kids playing - they will loose their arms or legs, maybe their lifes."

This is not something that is exclusive to Cluster Bombs. No one deny's that it is a problem. Everything is being done to prevent the problem of unexploded orandance. But this is something that all countries have a problem with because it is a problem that can occur with any explosive.

"In the GB-senior Iraq war (desert storm) More than 1,600 Kuwaiti and Iraqi civilians have been killed, and another 2,500 injured, by the estimated 1.2 million explosive cluster bomb duds left following the 1991 Persian Gulf War, which saw the most extensive use of cluster bombs in history. Some 62,000 air-delivered cluster bombs, 100,000 DPICM artillery shells, and 10,000 MLRS rockets were used, containing a total of 24 to 30 million submunitions according to Human Rights Watch."

Far more lives were saved because of the use of these weapons which helped to bring the war to a close very early.

The website you sited is obviously a politically motivated site opposed to the war and not interested in an accurate estimate of the number of civilians killed do to fighting.

Whether the number was 1,400 or 7,000 does not change the fact that more lives were saved because of the war. Saddam had already murdered 1.7 million people, and he would have killed far far more than 1,400 or 7,000 if he had continued in power to the end of 2003.

Bush's policies resulted in potentially hundreds of thousands of lives saved, while those opposed to Bush's policies would have left Saddam in power to kill hundreds of thousands of more civilians in addition to potentially gaining more WMD to launch a devastating attack on the region and ruining the global economy.

 

[Klaus]

Uranium miners don't work without breathing protection. If you don't do this you get all the diseases like in the times of stalin where hundreds of people who workt in Uranium mines died in a cruel way

To the cluster bombs..
The problem is if a single bomb fails you can see the big bomb relatively easy and the parents can protect their children in some way - if there are all these small bombletts - the kids find these parts while playing. Also the chance is verry verry hight that some of the bobmblets of every clusterbomb won't explode (because of the sheer number of bomblets and therefore the number of the chances to fail)

You're right, the bodycount webpage isn't neutral, but they show how they evaluated these numbers - so everyone who wants to criticize them cann proof that there was no bombdropping on day x at y.

I see your point. Saddam did murder a lot of people, most of them in the 80ies and after he lost iraq war 1 to take revenge on the people who supported the US invasion.
I guess we both agree that the humanitarian effort was just a "side effect" for the administration - i don't believe they would have invaded iraq just because saddam (the dictator who was supported by the western countrys for such a long time) is - surprise suprise - a evil man who murders innocent citizens of his country.

Klaus

 

[STING2]

Klaus,

The study I read about with the Uranium Miners is the most extensive study of its kind done on the health effects to workers. The conclusion of the study is that breathing in Natural Uranium dusts did not lead to any more health problems among the Uranium Miners than the general population. Natural Uranium is more toxic and Radioactive than Depleted Uranium by a factor of two to one. The Miners health was studied over a period of 30 years.

As of right now, there is no evidence that anyone has indisputably suffered side effects from Depleted Uranium. That does not mean there are not people sick though, it just means that it has not been proven that Depleted Uranium was the cause. Based on the studies of Natural Uranium which is more toxic and Radioactive than Depleted Uranium, there is no reason to stop using Depleted Uranium. Both US and British forces used Depleted Uranium in operation Iraqi Freedom.

Again, with Cluster Bombs, there are shells and gernades just as small or smaller which sometimes do not detonate. Work needs to be done to reduce the number of shells and bombs that do not explode, but right now, there is no way to ensure 100% that there will not be problems.

The Body Count page gets its information second hand from sources that are most likely inaccurate. Only in depth comparisons of local town tax and census records, death records, burials, and interviews with civilians on a mass scale could ever hope to achieve a possible estimate of what happened. Reports simply based on word of mouth are often inaccurate.

I remember last year when the pro-palestinian and left leaning sites were reporting that the Israely Army had killed thousands of civlians in Jenin. After UN specialist went through and checked everything out in depth, it was discovered that only 48 civilians had been killed, and all the deaths appeared to be from accidents. Yet, liberal websites ran around with numbers approaching 7,000.

 

[Klaus]

STING2:
I can look for Depleated Uranium Studies if you like

to Cluster Bombs:
The chance that some of 10.000 bomblets won't explode and can't be found are simply higher compared to 100 conventional bombs. That's the problem. The chances increase that a child will find it...
Also precision bombing is problematic with this kind of weapon - but even if you bomb "military only areal" you have to remember that after the fall of the country and all the chaos civilians might play or search for water/food on the former military base

To http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ if you take look how they counted it, it seems to me somewhat more reliable than "just a number" they added date and time and the source to every civilian they counted.
I also understand that they feel they "have to do it"since General Tommy Franks said "we don't do body counts" - people have simply an interest - and i guess even the right to know how much "colaterle damage" was done

Klaus

 

[STING2]

Klaus,

"I can look for Depleated Uranium Studies if you like"

I've already done that. I suggest you look at Natural Uranium studies since there are more of those. There is no proven evidence that anyone has suffered from the effects of Depleted Uranium. There are allegations, but thats it. If Depleted Uranium was really dangerous, the military would not use it. There are to many easy and good alternative shells in stock such as Tungsten or HEAT warheads. More importantly, Science shows that only in unusual large amounts of consumption would there be any effects. There are soldiers that have depleted Uranium embedded in their bodies and they do not suffer effects.

Depleted Uranium rounds are used all the time in Maryland at the proving grounds. There are no side effects for anyone living on the base there or in the area's around it.

 

[STING2]

Klaus,

The US military has studied the problem and is trying to reduce the numbers on ordanance that does not explode. But at this time, the military has concluded there is no reason to stop using them. This is not something that is a 100 times greater than your average shell. It is a problem, but at this time, their continued use in warfare saves far more lives than it kills, because it helps to accomplish the objective faster there by ending the war sooner. There are to many people out there they rage about the problem but they don't understand the fact that this is a problem with all explosives.

As far as "bodycount", they rely on second hand sources that are simply other media most likely reporting inaccuratetly the numbers of people killed. Again, I mention JENIN! 7,000 people were not killed at Jenin, but "Bodycount" would have supported a similar figure with its second hand sources. Once a real investigation of JENIN was done, it was found that only 48 civilians had been killed and all were thought to be accidental.

 

[Klaus]

If it is harmless why should they reduce it?

It's like the filter cigarettes - the industry said "no our studies show smoking isn't unhealthy" but in the background they developed things to reduce cancer-risk.

Since you can see every single database entry you can make up your own mind how trustworthy that is. I prefer sources like these over statements like "My government tells me there were "x" dead people" - no backgrounddata - nothing.
This works as long as you know you can trust your government. The more they don't tell the truth in public (accidentially or with a intension) the less people listen to their official statements unless they can proof it.
So if you give me a more credible source (including the informations how they created their statistics) I'm happy to compare it to http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Klaus

 

[STING2]

Klaus,

I never said it was harmless. Accidents happen everywhere, and we should do everything to reduce the probability that they happen. But there is no reason to recall an effective weapon system that is helping to win wars quickly, which saves far more lives than these accidents take.

I would never compare a private company like the cigarette industry to the US military. The US military is there to serve. The Cigarette company is there to make a profit.

If you think "Bodycount" is accurate fine. But they are not on the ground reporting and investigating themselves like the UN specialist did in Jenin. Bodycount may have an accurate estimation of what has been reported in the media. But that is not an accurate estimation of what actually happened, as JENIN proves.

 

[anitram]

Klaus,
There is no proven evidence that anyone has suffered from the effects of Depleted Uranium. There are allegations, but thats it.

Are you a molecular geneticist, STING?

Because if you read the research published on MEDLine (you won't have access unless you're in a bioresearch facility or at a university), you would not really make such bold statements. The data is there and some of it is a hell of a lot more convincing, so much so that I have had multiple professors lecture on it and none of these world class folks have ever said it was mere "allegations."

 

[STING2]

anitram,

The data for the Uranium miners is widely available. The US government has looked into this multiple times and is indeed concerned about the health of the local population and especially the soldiers. After over a decade of study, there is nothing that has led them to conclude that DU is a serious enough hazard to warrent not using DU. Soldiers from the Gulf War who injested DU and and have parts of DU shells imbedded in their bodies have not suffered any more health problems than similar groups among the uneffected general population. This is not only the US finding by the finding of NATO has a whole.

If DU were a serious problem, it would be easy enough to switch to another shell whether it be with Tungsten, or some other dense core. In addition, shells with HEAT Warheads can be used in the same role as well.

 

[Klaus]

Sting2: it's not as easy as you think, DU is much much cheaper (it's nuclear waste) than Tungsten.
All the Studies i tried to find quickly were classified (NATO/US/GB)

But on one page i read the Agent Orange which was used in the Vietnam war was used also the scientists of the US military knew already the bad side-effects - true?.

Klaus

 

[STING2]

Klaus,

"it's not as easy as you think, DU is much much cheaper (it's nuclear waste) than Tungsten."

Do you have the difference in cost of a Anti-Armor penetrater with a Tungsten Core as apposed to a Depleted Uranium one?

In addition, every US Tank has a ready supply of Shells that use a HEAT Warhead, which uses chemical energy rather than kinetic energy to destroy targets.

I have seen studies done by the US Army and NATO posted on the internet. I'll have to dig them up again because I can't remember the websites off hand.

The USA and other countries have been using Depleted Uranium for over 25 years now. Plenty of studies have been done over that time period, and the majority of the evidence has not suggested that the USA or any other countries should stop using DU.

 

[Klaus]

STING2:

Maybe you can easier get the prices out from your NATO resources, but if not i can quote the people who have written that statement (that DU is much much cheaper, because it is an expensive to store waste of the Atomic Energy)

I am extremely careful with classified studies where i can just hear the result "don't worry" - the health of the soldiers as well as the liberated civilians is too important to just trust studies which are paid by the people who might want to use that stuff just for economical reasons

Klaus

 

[deep]

Klaus,



I have seen studies done by the US Army and NATO posted on the internet. I'll have to dig them up again because I can't remember the websites off hand.

The USA and other countries have been using Depleted Uranium for over 25 years now. Plenty of studies have been done over that time period, and the majority of the evidence has not suggested that the USA or any other countries should stop using DU.

And the tobacco industry had studies (for many years) that said tobacco was not addictive or even harmful.