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Old 07-10-2003, 03:50 PM   #31
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Scarletwine,

"Being a sceptic where authority is concerned and especially politicians, the inability of the admin. to demonstrate in a tangible way the threat of Sadaam was a major reason I protested the war, especially with the former head of the inspection team refutting the "facts" the admin. used. The other was the lack of OK and involvement by NATO and the UN."

Did you realize that the majority of the Bush Administrations case against Iraq was based on what the UN inspectors had found up to the end of 1998 in Iraq. When Bush got UN inspectors back into Iraq in 2002 and Saddam failed to cooperate by giving up or showing the remains of the WMD that he was documented by the UN as having in 1998, what was the administration supposed to do? Peaceful disarmament of Iraq is incumbent upon Saddam's cooperation with the process. If Saddam does not cooperate, the only way to insure that he is disarmed is through military force.

Now we are stuck in a QUAGMIRE with no outlet in sight.

Why do you say Quagmire? Iraq is a country that has been drained by 24 years of Saddam in power, 3 wars, and international economic sanctions. The administration and everyone new that after the war was over, US troops would have to be there for years.

But lets say the French and the Germans were with us all the way. What precisely in detail, do you think would be different about the post-war situation in Iraq considering the majority of the attacks have been by surviving loyal members of Saddams regime?

What happened to a Iraqi intermeddiate gov't?
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Old 07-20-2003, 03:29 AM   #32
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Old 07-20-2003, 04:54 AM   #33
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Sting,
What could well be different if more countries than simply the US were involved (and I'm including countries other than just France and Germany) is that Iraqis might feel less like their country is being occupied by an aggressor. Whether you agree with them or not, you must admit that there are many in Iraq who feel hostile to the US because it is seen as an aggressor as it attacked their country. There are very many people in Iraq who will have been badly affected by the war, whether because they lost a friend or family member or because their home or local school was damaged in the bombing.

Of course it could also be different if the US would begin to treat innocent Iraqis in a more humane fashion. Perhaps you've seen the news reports which show US soldiers bursting into people's homes in the dead of night, tying their arms behind their backs at gunpoint and then ransacking their home. This clearly isn't the way for the US to establish a good relationship with the people of Iraq.

*Fizz.
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Old 07-20-2003, 05:26 PM   #34
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Fizzing,


"What could well be different if more countries than simply the US were involved (and I'm including countries other than just France and Germany) is that Iraqis might feel less like their country is being occupied by an aggressor. Whether you agree with them or not, you must admit that there are many in Iraq who feel hostile to the US because it is seen as an aggressor as it attacked their country. There are very many people in Iraq who will have been badly affected by the war, whether because they lost a friend or family member or because their home or local school was damaged in the bombing."

How many people in Iraq can actually distinguish Italian from Polish troops or French from Dutch troops? To most people, they are foreign soldiers, plain and simple. Most people in Iraq, mainly the Shia and Kurds do not feel their country was necessarily attacked, but feel an evil leader that has killed 1.7 million people in the region was removed. There are plenty of disagreements on what to do now of course as their always is when such a big change like the fall of a dictator happens.

Despite a vocal minority in the south, British and US Marines have gotten along very well with people in Southern Iraq. Over 90% of the fighting and hostile fire against US troops is in the Baghdad/Tikrit area.

Damage from the war to civilians has been very small. Most of the poor conditions in many area's of Iraq have been there for over a decade, even two decades. Saddam executed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people. The war in contrast was a small costs to Iraqi civilians compared to the rule of Saddam Hussien. An Uncountable number of Iraqi lives have been saved because of the war. People in Iraq for the first time in a quarter century have the opportunity to have a real future. The cost of not going to war would have been far greater for Iraqi civilians than the war has been.

"Of course it could also be different if the US would begin to treat innocent Iraqis in a more humane fashion. Perhaps you've seen the news reports which show US soldiers bursting into people's homes in the dead of night, tying their arms behind their backs at gunpoint and then ransacking their home. This clearly isn't the way for the US to establish a good relationship with the people of Iraq."

Actually I hope they would do more of this. This is how weapons are siezed and Saddam loyalist captured. These are the people that are planting bombs around Baghdad and killing people. Its one thing to be waken up in the night like this, its another to have a family member killed, a daughter or mother raped, and to live in fear of the unknown. Its going to take some time to root out the Baath Party and Saddam loyalists, but its necessary if people in Baghdad want to have a safe and secure future.
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Old 07-20-2003, 05:39 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
"Of course it could also be different if the US would begin to treat innocent Iraqis in a more humane fashion. Perhaps you've seen the news reports which show US soldiers bursting into people's homes in the dead of night, tying their arms behind their backs at gunpoint and then ransacking their home. This clearly isn't the way for the US to establish a good relationship with the people of Iraq."

Actually I hope they would do more of this.
You make me sick.

Go ahead and ban me if you like mods, but I'd like to have my say on this point.

How would you like this to happen to you Sting? You're sleeping in your bed at night when suddenly six or eight people break down your front door with a battering ram. They run into your home speaking in a language you don't understand. They come into your bedroom and point guns at you before dragging you from your bed, throwing you to the floor and tying your hands behind your back. They search your house, throwing your possessions on the floor, you don't know if theyr'e damaging your possessions, stealing them or anything else. Do you have children, Sting? Imagine their fear as they see their parents being handcuffed at gunpoint. Imagine their terror as their home is searched by foreign soldiers. Imagine trying to feel safe enough to go back to sleep after this happened, imagine trying to clean up the mess the soldiers made of your home, imagine trying to get the door they smashed down fixed.

And you want to see more of this? Like I said: it makes me sick.

I don't care if people supported or opposed this war, we should all have the basic decency and respect for human rights to realise that this treatment of innocent people is WRONG.
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Old 07-20-2003, 06:10 PM   #36
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How many people in Iraq can actually distinguish Italian from Polish troops or French from Dutch troops? To most people, they are foreign soldiers, plain and simple. Most people in Iraq, mainly the Shia and Kurds do not feel their country was necessarily attacked, but feel an evil leader that has killed 1.7 million people in the region was removed. There are plenty of disagreements on what to do now of course as their always is when such a big change like the fall of a dictator happens.

STING, with all due respect, if this were a war that was clearly sanctioned by the UN, with troops from other MUSLIM Nations involved, with the support of multiple nations from the Middle East, I do not think they would have to distinguish between them. Of course, if you think it is better that Americans alone are killed instead of working through the international comminity then so be it.

Yes, Saddam was evil. I am pretty sure even the nations who were opposed to the war and the protestors in the streets before the war would agree with this. How is it even remotely relevant to the situation?

Of course most people in Iraq are happy Saddam is gone, but guess what, they are equally not happy about being dominated by an OCCUPATION force dominated by the US.

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Despite a vocal minority in the south, British and US Marines have gotten along very well with people in Southern Iraq. Over 90% of the fighting and hostile fire against US troops is in the Baghdad/Tikrit area.
Wow, I think today may be the first time I have seen you admit there is some dissent elsewhere in Iraq. I wonder, do you truly believe that the vocal minority of Shite Muslims, will remain a minority if it appears the US is preventing their religious leaders from participating in the governing of Iraq?

Quote:
Damage from the war to civilians has been very small. Most of the poor conditions in many area's of Iraq have been there for over a decade, even two decades. Saddam executed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people. The war in contrast was a small costs to Iraqi civilians compared to the rule of Saddam Hussien. An Uncountable number of Iraqi lives have been saved because of the war. People in Iraq for the first time in a quarter century have the opportunity to have a real future. The cost of not going to war would have been far greater for Iraqi civilians than the war has been.
Again, back to the EVIL SADDAM, which if we did a poll here in FYM everyone would agree was EVIL. This point you make about saving lives is true, and I believe I used it months before the war started here in FYM. The problem is, this was NOT the main thrust of the administrations case against Iraq.

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Actually I hope they would do more of this. This is how weapons are siezed and Saddam loyalist captured. These are the people that are planting bombs around Baghdad and killing people. Its one thing to be waken up in the night like this, its another to have a family member killed, a daughter or mother raped, and to live in fear of the unknown. Its going to take some time to root out the Baath Party and Saddam loyalists, but its necessary if people in Baghdad want to have a safe and secure future.
I totally 100% disagree with this statement. I suppose we identify Ba'ath Party and Saddam loyalists from our trusty intelligence? There needs to be some type of system modeled after South Africa, where people can come to the table, confess crimes, and move on. A weapons turn in would be nice as well. To a person who has been treated the way you describe above, there is NO DIFFERENCE between SADDAM breaking down the door or the new bully on the block, it is just another bully.
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Old 07-20-2003, 06:36 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


You make me sick.

Go ahead and ban me if you like mods, but I'd like to have my say on this point.

How would you like this to happen to you Sting? You're sleeping in your bed at night when suddenly six or eight people break down your front door with a battering ram. They run into your home speaking in a language you don't understand. They come into your bedroom and point guns at you before dragging you from your bed, throwing you to the floor and tying your hands behind your back. They search your house, throwing your possessions on the floor, you don't know if theyr'e damaging your possessions, stealing them or anything else. Do you have children, Sting? Imagine their fear as they see their parents being handcuffed at gunpoint. Imagine their terror as their home is searched by foreign soldiers. Imagine trying to feel safe enough to go back to sleep after this happened, imagine trying to clean up the mess the soldiers made of your home, imagine trying to get the door they smashed down fixed.

And you want to see more of this? Like I said: it makes me sick.

I don't care if people supported or opposed this war, we should all have the basic decency and respect for human rights to realise that this treatment of innocent people is WRONG.
Fizzing, maybe you need to go back and read Sting's post. This is happening to Baath Party members and Saddam loyalists. It's not some willy nilly "Oh, let's get this Iraqi" kind of thing. They are going after the bad guys, not innocent Iraqis.
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Old 07-20-2003, 07:49 PM   #38
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FizzingWhizzbees,

How would you like it if your family members were killed by a bomb made in a house that you decided not to search because its some how some grave human rights violation. If you wanted to catch a Baath Party member or Saddam loyalist that you believe is hiding somewhere, you don't invite the occupants of the house to come outside in the middle of the day and ask them politely over Green Tea if it would be okay to search the house. Your not going to catch anyone that could potentially kill dozens of people with a bomb that way. The only way to catch someone like that is through surprise, best done when they would least suspect it.

As far as what happens when you search a house where it is suspected that a Baath Party leader or Saddam loyalist that has been killing US troops is hiding, what the soldiers did was totally appropriate. If a Baath Party member of Saddam loyalist was there, people could easily be killed. The best chance for the survival and safety of the civilians and the US soldies in this action is to do precisely what they did. Its not pleasent and its not nice, but its important to do if want to save peoples lives.

For me, its about protecting Iraqi civilians and US troops from the violence that is being conducted by Baath Party members and Saddam Loyalist. Protecting peoples lives is more important that the experience of being ruffed up and scared in the middle of the night.

I don't think it is sick at all for US troops to be conducting raids to intercept Saddam loyalist and Baath Party members that are killing people. This is not a tiny villiage on the Irish coast, this is the Baghdad/Tikrit area.
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Old 07-20-2003, 08:38 PM   #39
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Dreadsox,

"STING, with all due respect, if this were a war that was clearly sanctioned by the UN, with troops from other MUSLIM Nations involved, with the support of multiple nations from the Middle East, I do not think they would have to distinguish between them. Of course, if you think it is better that Americans alone are killed instead of working through the international comminity then so be it."

The United States is not working alone! There are many reasons though why it is not a good idea to have soldiers from many middle eastern countries in Iraq. As I said before, if you have a breakdown of what the troop commitment should be for you to consider it "multi-national" please tell me what it is. What is your historical model for a multi-national force for Iraq?

I'd be happy as hell if no US troops had to be in Iraq at all. But this mission requires US troops, a large number of US troops. Without them, any sort of international effort would most likely not work, at least in this initial phase.

I'm going to ignore your last sentence. I remind you that my best friend is currently serving in the US Marine Corp in Southern Iraq. He is a Captain and a Cobra Attack Helicopter Pilot. I normally communicate with him through E-mail, but he actually got to call me from Iraq a few weeks ago. Another good friend has had the luck of being home from Iraq for the past two months, but he served for 6 months in Afghanistan in the last half of 2002. He got home from Afghanistan and 6 weeks later was headed to Iraq.

"Yes, Saddam was evil. I am pretty sure even the nations who were opposed to the war and the protestors in the streets before the war would agree with this. How is it even remotely relevant to the situation?"

I was responding to what Fizzing had stated. Not everyone understands how terrible Saddam was, especially those in the Anti-War community. Its important to remind those that talk about the cost of the war, what the cost of not acting would be.

"Of course most people in Iraq are happy Saddam is gone, but guess what, they are equally not happy about being dominated by an OCCUPATION force dominated by the US."

Most people in Iraq are concerned about their daily needs, not the composition of the current coalition force. Many people are still scared about Saddam. Continued coalition presence will help to alleviate this. To compare the US soldiers with SADDAM's secret security services and military is absurd.

"Wow, I think today may be the first time I have seen you admit there is some dissent elsewhere in Iraq. I wonder, do you truly believe that the vocal minority of Shite Muslims, will remain a minority if it appears the US is preventing their religious leaders from participating in the governing of Iraq?"

There is someone dissenting about someone or something in every part of the planet. I have stated my concerned about this vocal minority before, especially in regards to their relations with Iraq. I can't say what the the future holds, but I know that it would be a mistake to allow the fundamentalist Shia, a level of position in the government in which they could eventually take over the government and surpress the minority Sunni and Kurdish populations in the future.

"Again, back to the EVIL SADDAM, which if we did a poll here in FYM everyone would agree was EVIL. This point you make about saving lives is true, and I believe I used it months before the war started here in FYM. The problem is, this was NOT the main thrust of the administrations case against Iraq."

Its not a problem because in the context I was discussing the above, I was not discussing the administrations case for war against Iraq. Again, I was responding specifically in the above case to Fizzing's statements about the conditions of Iraqi civilians.

"I totally 100% disagree with this statement. I suppose we identify Ba'ath Party and Saddam loyalists from our trusty intelligence? There needs to be some type of system modeled after South Africa, where people can come to the table, confess crimes, and move on. A weapons turn in would be nice as well. To a person who has been treated the way you describe above, there is NO DIFFERENCE between SADDAM breaking down the door or the new bully on the block, it is just another bully."

Yes, I'm sure Saddam and his followers will walk up and confess their crimes and move on. This is not even remotely like South Africa. I trust the intelligence that US soldiers have been gathering on the ground rather than some crazy idea that the best way to take out a sniper is to ask him to come downtown to the palace and confess his sins.

A weapons turn is already taking place. Those that have no real need for them turn them in. Those that are interested in attacking coalition troops do not turn them in.

There is a BIG difference between the coalitions occupation of Iraq and Saddam Hussien. In one case the person is killed or maimed in someway. Or perhaps they spend years in a torture chamber. In the US case, a family experiences what its like when the military performs a legitamite search operation in order to head off the potential killing of dozens of people. Its not fun for anyone involved including the soldiers. Saddam acted to take lives, while US soldiers are acting to save them. If you equate Saddam with the good work that US soldiers are doing, your misinformed on what Saddam did on a routine basis in the past.
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Old 07-21-2003, 08:15 AM   #40
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Fizzing, maybe you need to go back and read Sting's post. This is happening to Baath Party members and Saddam loyalists. It's not some willy nilly "Oh, let's get this Iraqi" kind of thing. They are going after the bad guys, not innocent Iraqis.
I don't quite get this idea. All the citizens that wanted a job were Baath Party members. What intelligence sources are they using? A next door neighbor that never liked the guy?

I have to agree with with Fizz and Dread, this is bullshit.
They are invading homes in the middle of the night and using unnecessary force. There are better ways to deal with the situation. We are acting no better than Sadaam.
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Old 07-21-2003, 11:05 AM   #41
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Originally posted by Scarletwine
They are invading homes in the middle of the night and using unnecessary force. There are better ways to deal with the situation. We are acting no better than Sadaam.
Correction, under Saddam the Iraqi people had (a bit more) food, heat, electricity and security. Not much maybe, but still a bit...
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Old 07-21-2003, 01:45 PM   #42
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I'm going to echo Dread and Scarletwine - how do you know the people who are being held at gunpoint and having their homes ransacked by US troops are "Saddam loyalists"? Is it acceptable to treat people in this way on a mere suspicion? It isn't happening *only* to people who were members of the Ba'ath party, although that reminds me: weren't some of the pro-war people here arguing that people needed to be members of the Ba'ath party in order to secure food and other supplies in Iraq prior the war...?

Quote:
STING: Not everyone understands how terrible Saddam was, especially those in the Anti-War community
Actually I think you'll find that the anti-war movement knew perfectly well what Saddam was like. It's why we campaigned under the slogan NO TO WAR; NO TO SADDAM. Opposition to the war does not mean support for Saddam.

We knew just how terrible Saddam was in the 1980s when Western politicians were still happy to have their photos taken shaking hands with Saddam while we were arguing that he was a vile dictator and the West should stop supplying him with weapons.

In the year before the war I worked with a refugee campaign group which included several Iraqi Kurds who were fighting to prevent the British government sending them back to Iraq. We argued they should be allowed to stay in this country because of what Saddam's regime would do to them if they were sent back.

Does any of that suggest to you that people in the anti-war movement supported Saddam or were under any illusions as to the nature of his regime?
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Old 07-21-2003, 03:26 PM   #43
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FizzingWhizzbees,

In order to take down Baath party member and other Saddam loyalist, it is necessary to conduct raids on area's where they might be hiding. Capturing Saddam loyalist and Baath party members saves lives. The raid itself is conducted in a way that any police or swat team in a US city would do wants the decision is given to move in. To do otherwise risks the lives of anyone inside and the soldiers themselves.

"We knew just how terrible Saddam was in the 1980s when Western politicians were still happy to have their photos taken shaking hands with Saddam while we were arguing that he was a vile dictator and the West should stop supplying him with weapons."

The situation in the 1980s saw Iraq nearly get overrun by Iran. While there was a small amount of Western help to prevent this, the vast majority of it came from the SOVIET UNION. Look at the weapon systems that the Iraqi military actually uses!

The Anti-War crowd recently has supported policy options that would have left Saddam in power. Their ideas would never of disarmed Saddam and would of led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's. The War removed Saddam and removed the threat of his use and production of WMD. It also saved hundreds of Thousands of Iraqi's from torture and death. In my opinion, if the Anti-War crowd really understood the threat that Saddam was and what he had done to his people, they would have supported military action to remove Saddam. Then again, if your a pacifist, maybe not. Bottom line, Bush's actions removed a threat and saved far more lives than it took. Anti-War crowds policy's would have left a threat in place that could blow up in the future, and would have been enormously costly in terms of lives for the Iraqi people.

Popmartijn,

Correction, if you were Sunni muslim and in no way a political opponent of Saddam, you might have been a little better off under Saddam than you are now. If you were a Kurd or a Shia, the conditions that people live in now have been the conditions they have been experiencing without any help for years.

Lets not forget the nearly 1 million people that Saddam murdered. I think they have a slightly different opinion about life under Saddam.
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Old 07-21-2003, 03:46 PM   #44
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You didn't answer my question: if we supported Saddam, why did we campaign under the slogan NO TO WAR; NO TO SADDAM?

The "anti-war crowd" as you so disparagingly refer to them knew perfectly well the nature of Saddam's regime. They simply didn't believe that dropping thousands of tonnes of explosives onto innocent people was the best of of deposing him and allowing Iraq to develop any form of stable government.

And finally, as evil as Saddam was, he didn't murder a million people. Your figure includes deaths due to the UN sanctions which denied Iraq such basic products as pain medication for hospitals or refrigerated trucks in order to move food around the country.
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Old 07-21-2003, 03:58 PM   #45
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
You didn't answer my question: if we supported Saddam, why did we campaign under the slogan NO TO WAR; NO TO SADDAM?

The "anti-war crowd" as you so disparagingly refer to them knew perfectly well the nature of Saddam's regime. They simply didn't believe that dropping thousands of tonnes of explosives onto innocent people was the best of of deposing him and allowing Iraq to develop any form of stable government.
Right. Some Iraqis believe that now, Iraq is never going to be stable. *Never*. That's scary. And no, we didn't support Saddam. He's a . I never felt any differently. He's still at large and is still causing problems.
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