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Old 09-23-2005, 02:30 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Let me simplify it for you. I don't need to hear Jesse Jackson's profound, yet predictable accusations of racism every time we have a hurricane.
no need to simplify anything; i understand everything you're saying all too well.

must be nice to live such a charmed life that you don't have to deal with the realities of racism impacting your life, your ambitions, your family everyday.
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:31 PM   #32
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So people should stop wanting to be accepted for who they are and as equals w/ equal rights and opportunities and just "fit in"?

The difference in your Interference analogy is that your life is not impacted in any way if there are more macphistos in this forum. You wouldn't face discrimination and/or outright hatred because of a lack of them or the existence of them.

I agree w/ dandy, we live charmed lives when we don't have to deal with those things. Maybe if you lived in someone else's shoes for even one day you'd have a better understanding.
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:32 PM   #33
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I agree. But how can we achieve this when we cry "racism" day after day without any credibility?


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As all of us saw on television, there's also some deep, persistent poverty in this region, as well. That poverty has roots in a history of racial discrimination, which cut off generations from the opportunity of America. We have a duty to confront this poverty with bold action
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:38 PM   #34
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
So tell me about it. All you've said is that it matters. Now tell me why without personalizing my posts.


okay, let me tell you a story.

my best friend is south asian indian. we have been friends since 8th grade, and we are deeply emotionally intimate with each other. we've gone to the movies, and when i pay for my ticket and she pays for her ticket and the teller looks at us funny, as if to say, "why won't you buy your girlfriend a ticket," my response is, "oh, we're brother and sister." that gets a funny reaction.

anyway, the only time things get prickly is when we talk about race. i never, ever think of her race. i barely notice it; it's cosmetic to me. i can see it a bit more with her parents, since they do have accents and their house does have hindu religious artifacts all around. but, to my mind, whatever. it really makes no difference, and it is just one piece in the larger narrative in which i understand (and love) her as a person.

while i can forget that she's south asian, she never does. she is always completely aware that she is just a bit different, and i'm sure growing up in a vastly white suburb like we did exacerbated this. she says she's aware that she's indian every day, all the time, and in a million-and-one subtle ways that no mainstream white person would ever think of. it's the little things -- i remember while she was gushing about how good "the english patient" was, she mentioned, "not only was there an indian character, but he got to have sex!!!! that *never* happens in movies!!!"

essentially, when you are a minority in any way, you are reminded of this in all aspects of culture. to some, this becomes a source of strength; a way to individualize yourself and distinguish yourself from what you might perceive as a misguided mainstream. but not everyone's that strong, particularly when you're young and a teenager. indirectly, this contributed, i think, to a small battle with an eating disorder when she was a freshman in college; and, to this day, she is extremely aware of her looks -- thus, she looks *terrific* and her taste is impeccable.

for myself, being a sexual minority, i am always, always aware that i'm different whenever i'm amongst heterosexuals and there are discussions of dating, sex, romance, etc. and these somewhat anxious feelings arise even when i'm with people who know and love me and are supportive and would never, ever even think of treating me differently (much the way i never really think about my best friend's race). it doesn't matter that they are 100% comfortable with my having a boyfriend (and in fact, they often love going out with us to restaurants, since it's hip for straight couples to have gay couple friends); i am never 100% comfortable with my sexuality in the presence of all heterosexuals. weddings make me both anxious and depressed, no matter how happy i might be for my friends. this is something that i cannot do, a gift i cannot give my parents, a ritual in which i cannot participate, and ultimately no one is going to *really* understand except for another gay person. it's simply a fact that differences matter, because on a macro level, society treats you differently because of such differences.

the idea of a colorblind society strikes me as naive, and also sublty racist. being colorblind is a luxury only *you* can afford because you, as a white person, can walk through the day and never once think of your race. those of us who have to live with a major social difference -- race, ethnicity, religious, sexual -- are keenly aware of this. it's not that you, the individual, have done something wrong, or something intentional; it's that the structure of society is aligned, at all levels, to reflect and reinforce the values of the majority.

also, think about it -- there would be no white people if there were no black people; there would be no heterosexuals without homoseuxals. the very definitions and self-understanding of the mainstream norm is predicated upon the maintenance of social differences and distinctions with a minority.
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:38 PM   #35
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
So people should stop wanting to be accepted for who they are and as equals w/ equal rights and opportunities and just "fit in"?
Wow, we're on thread number three, and some still don't get it. Yes, you should be yourself, you should keep your individuality, but none of that should stop you from being a part of society. I'm so sick of trying to explain myself. If I hadn't clarified anything by now, I probably never will.
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:40 PM   #36
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Yep, I just don't get it
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:42 PM   #37
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That poverty has roots in a history of racial discrimination, which cut off generations from the opportunity of America.

is this remark playing the race card?
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:43 PM   #38
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Wow, we're on thread number three, and some still don't get it. Yes, you should be yourself, you should keep your individuality, but none of that should stop you from being a part of society. I'm so sick of trying to explain myself. If I hadn't clarified anything by now, I probably never will.
Maybe you'll understand by 2050 when the U.S. Hispanic (and overwhelmingly Roman Catholic) population will outnumber whites (and Protestants), and you'll be expected to start assimilating into their culture.

Oh what will the "school prayer" advocates say when they start cracking out the rosary to start the day?

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Old 09-23-2005, 02:43 PM   #39
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Thanks Irvine for explaining yourself. I have no doubts that a lot of people feel different inside when they shouldn't have to.
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:47 PM   #40
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Originally posted by deep
is this remark playing the race card?
It's not an uplifting remark for minorities - or any other member of society - to be reminded of. I find it to be fairly degrading when we obsess over comments like those instead of admiring the minorities who live successful lives.
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:50 PM   #41
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Originally posted by melon


Maybe you'll understand by 2050 when the U.S. Hispanic (and overwhelmingly Roman Catholic) population will outnumber whites (and Protestants), and you'll be expected to start assimilating into their culture.

Oh what will the "school prayer" advocates say when they start cracking out the rosary to start the day?

Melon
This brings me off the topic, but if need I reply, maybe the school prayer advocates would be willing to leave it up to the individual which way they wish to worship, rather than establish statism on each and every student.
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:54 PM   #42
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
It's not an uplifting remark for minorities - or any other member of society - to be reminded of. I find it to be fairly degrading when we obsess over comments like those instead of admiring the minorities who live successful lives.


doesn't the celebration of michael jordan, oprah, etc., just distract from the real issues? isn't it in the best interests of a ruling class to have a few individuals who have "made it" so they can point to them and say, "see? it can be done," when, really, society is structured so that it cannot be done, at least in a meaningful way.

this is not to say, however, that there is no such thing as a black middle class. on a statistical level, the 1990s were a good time for the black middle classes, they grew, and more people were able to pull themselves up out of poverty. but, historically, this has not been the norm.

also, achieving "equality" is easist when you're talking about economics. it's the subtler, psychological toll of racism that's harder to spot, and harder to combat. if we need to hear the N-word in order for us to understand something as racist, then we're really not listening hard enough.
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Old 09-23-2005, 02:55 PM   #43
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
This brings me off the topic, but if need I reply, maybe the school prayer advocates would be willing to leave it up to the individual which way they wish to worship, rather than establish statism on each and every student.
But these same people demand on posting the Ten Commandments everywhere--the Protestant version, of course. The Catholic version is slightly different, but different nonetheless. What would they say if the Catholic Ten Commandments were posted instead?

Or what if crucifixes (instead of blank crosses) were hung in the classroom?

My point is that it's easy to cry "assimilation" when its YOUR values and YOUR culture you want everyone to assimilate into. When you're the outsider, however, it becomes very apparent how different you are. And Irvine511's story is a very similar for all those who somehow don't fit into the narrow homogeneity that is "American."

And that's why we continue to have racial tensions.

Melon
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Old 09-23-2005, 03:09 PM   #44
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Originally posted by Irvine511
doesn't the celebration of michael jordan, oprah, etc., just distract from the real issues? isn't it in the best interests of a ruling class to have a few individuals who have "made it" so they can point to them and say, "see? it can be done," when, really, society is structured so that it cannot be done, at least in a meaningful way.
I really think it would show a positive and motivating message if we spent less time on the "you can't do it" and more on the "you can do it." But I agree to a point where we shouldn't let it escape our history, and we shouldn't ignore those who aren't living a satisfying life. I don't see how this would have a negative impact on society.

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Originally posted by Irvine511
this is not to say, however, that there is no such thing as a black middle class. on a statistical level, the 1990s were a good time for the black middle classes, they grew, and more people were able to pull themselves up out of poverty. but, historically, this has not been the norm.
Historically, no. But it's been getting better. A fair share of my middle class neighbors were black and lived quite well, to what I would consider middle class.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
also, achieving "equality" is easist when you're talking about economics. it's the subtler, psychological toll of racism that's harder to spot, and harder to combat. if we need to hear the N-word in order for us to understand something as racist, then we're really not listening hard enough.
I can't feel ignorant by wondering why Kanye West made the comment he made, why Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton went on to make the comments they made, etc. I thought about them, but I still couldn't give them any credibility.
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Old 09-23-2005, 03:11 PM   #45
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
It's not an uplifting remark for minorities - or any other member of society - to be reminded of. I find it to be fairly degrading when we obsess over comments like those instead of admiring the minorities who live successful lives.
Do you wish to include President Bush is your lead post as a player of the race card.

Those are direct quotes from his televised National speech.


You may need to ask yourself is your reaction to what is being said.

Or the color of the skin of the speaker
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