Results of an AOL poll.....what does everybody think? - U2 Feedback

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Old 08-21-2003, 10:20 PM   #1
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Results of an AOL poll.....what does everybody think?

Time for a nice debate.
I'm the Navy guy so you know I voted yes, yes!



Should religious symbols be allowed in government buildings?
79% Yes 250,057
21% No 68,372
Total votes: 318,429


Should students say the Pledge of Allegiance in schools?
67% Yes, it should be required 213,497
28% It should be optional 89,426
6% No, it shouldn't be said in schools at all 18,006
Total votes: 320,929
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Old 08-21-2003, 11:46 PM   #2
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Well the first question of the poll is always an interesting one(we have another current thread along the same lines going on in Alabama)

My answer would be no. Absolutely not. Unless you put every single symbol of every religion that is practiced in the US. But then you'll have the issue of people arguing if certain beliefs can actually be considered a religion. Would the KKK be considered a religion, would they be able to put their symbols up, what about the occult?

There's a reason we seperate Church and State. We've seen what happens when religion runs a country. It's NOT a good idea, and damn near impossible. Trust me the God I believe in wouldn't want to be associated with this government.

As far as the second question. I believe it should be optional. Personally I see pledging my allegiance to a flag to be a form of idolatry.

I have a question. I'm being sincere here. How is being in the Navy a given that you would say yes to the first question? I can understand the second but not the first. I know athiest who are serving in the Navy, so why would it be automatic?
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Old 08-22-2003, 12:02 PM   #3
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I think people get really stupid when it comes to religion. I can't tell you how happy I am that I was able to grow up with the freedom to practice the type of religion I was in (no longer practice though). So even though I grew up very religious, my dad is a minister, etc... I am SO supportive of the seperation of church and state. To have them together will inevitably position some groups of people before others and that isn't what this country is about. It's about supporting and welcoming the vast array of beliefs that are present throughout our society.

It really bothers me that conservatives spout off about how great our country is and the freedoms we have, etc..., but then want those freedoms to be relegated to only those that are Christian or only those that support the president's every move, and so on. Freedom means the rights of everyone and questioning and having your own beliefs.

I used to be all for the pledge until President Bush took office and now the sight of the flag makes me sad and angry.
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Old 08-22-2003, 12:12 PM   #4
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Unfortunately, religious symbols and the Pledge of Allegience (the version with the word "God" in it) have become lightening rods for the hateful extremists who want to beat religion back behind church doors.

I am against establishment of a state religion, for the record.
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Old 08-22-2003, 12:32 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Unfortunately, religious symbols and the Pledge of Allegience (the version with the word "God" in it) have become lightening rods for the hateful extremists who want to beat religion back behind church doors.

I am against establishment of a state religion, for the record.
Can you please tell me why religion doesn't belong behind church doors??

Again, you say the religion, but you mean Christianity. It may be the largest held religion in the U.S., but it isn't the only one. And it's only a drop in the bucket when you consider the religious beliefs of the world population.

To be persecuted or looked down upon or discriminated against because of not being Christian is not right and against what this country stands for. I doubt that you've ever had the opportunity for that to happen to you and so you can't comprehend it. But I am not a hateful extremist by any means. To me, hateful extremists are the ones who force a religion and belief on others when we supposedly live in a country with freedom of speech and religion.
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Old 08-22-2003, 12:35 PM   #6
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I'd vote yes to the first question, and for the second question I believe reciting the pledge of allegiance ought to be optional. I think it's wrong to force students to recite it if against their wishes, but equally it would be ridiculous to say students are forbidden to recite it.
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Old 08-22-2003, 12:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by womanfish
To me, hateful extremists are the ones who force a religion and belief on others when we supposedly live in a country with freedom of speech and religion.
I've heard this before and it is usually associated with anyone who opens their mouth to express their beliefs. It has nothing to do with someone forcing their beliefs - it has more to do with the "I don't want to hear" crowd.
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Old 08-22-2003, 12:40 PM   #8
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How is it hateful extremists?! So I, as a believer, but also a supporter of separation of Church and State am a hateful extremists? Why do you want a goverment building that doesn't represent the people? This is the purpose of government not to divide by religion.
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Old 08-22-2003, 12:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


I've heard this before and it is usually associated with anyone who opens their mouth to express their beliefs. It has nothing to do with someone forcing their beliefs - it has more to do with the "I don't want to hear" crowd.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "I don't want to hear" crowd, but again it is becoming painfully obvious that you have never had the distinct "pleasure" of being discriminated against or looked down on because of your religious beliefs. I have.

By doing this it is "forcing" the belief of the majority on those that have different beliefs.

I am all for people voicing their beliefs and opinions because I believe in the freedom of speech and religion. But the Christian majority needs to come to grips with the fact that the expressing of beliefs and opinions is not a right reserved soley for them. Many Christians completely close themselves off to other ways of thinking and believing.

Now that is a "I don't want to hear" crowd.
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Old 08-22-2003, 12:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by womanfish
I'm not sure what you mean by the "I don't want to hear" crowd, but again it is becoming painfully obvious that you have never had the distinct "pleasure" of being discriminated against or looked down on because of your religious beliefs. I have.
Actually, I have. In public and in the workplace.

In no way were those involved with the discrimination "forcing" their beliefs on me.

Christians may proselytize, some passionately (most donít at all). Still, the concept of "forced" belief is overused and misused.
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Old 08-22-2003, 01:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Actually, I have. In public and in the workplace.

In no way were those involved with the discrimination "forcing" their beliefs on me.

Christians may proselytize, some passionately (most donít at all). Still, the concept of "forced" belief is overused and misused.
I agree it may be misused at times. But I am using it as an overall statement. You seem to be ignoring the rest of my arguement because of me using that term. When you are discriminated against and you are in the minority, you often feel that it would be easier to abandon or change your beliefs than to go through the discrimination. It may not be a deliberate act of "forcing", but whatever you call it, it isn't right in a country with freedom of religion.
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Old 08-22-2003, 01:33 PM   #12
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There are many definitions of the term "hateful extremist" to me. Yes, one version is the kind of person who screams bloody murder at anyone who simply says something like "I believe in Jesus". Another version is the kind of extremism that wants to label me an "idolator" or whatever because I don't subscribe to a fundamentalist interpretation of Christianity. This is the infamous
"Bible Belt mentality" which I'm all too familiar with being from Alabama. These people are not to be confused with the people who mind their own business and say "I believe in Jesus" in all good faith. It works both ways. Most Christians are in the latter group. The former group is mostly known from being noisy and nosy about my personal affairs.
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Old 08-22-2003, 05:32 PM   #13
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here's the big thing about the First Amendment: its not there to protect the voice of the majority. Its there to protect the voice of the minority.

That being said, the commandment statue needs to be moved. There are several cases in which Moses shows up in political architecture such as the Supreme Court building and Congress, but Moses in these examples is included as an important lawmaker along side other important non-religious and religious lawmakers.

The difference in this case is that this judge is specifically saying he has it there to put God back in to law. He can't do that because putting God into American law is not separating church and state.

There are athiests who follow the laws of this land and religious people who go to church every week, walk out the church doors and break the law. Regardless of religion, you must follow the law of this land whether you agree with it or not. And if a high court says the monument needs to be removed, whether he agrees with the decision or not, the judge in this case needs to remove it. He is not a judge representing a church or a God. He is supposed to be a judge representing American citizens, regardless of their religion.
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Old 08-22-2003, 05:50 PM   #14
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I remember the day I went to vote in the political elections against this guy, in 2000. It was madness. I posted a note about the elections on an Internet list and people were absolutely shocked at this candidate.
Take down that statue.
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Old 08-22-2003, 05:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
Regardless of religion, you must follow the law of this land whether you agree with it or not. And if a high court says the monument needs to be removed, whether he agrees with the decision or not, the judge in this case needs to remove it. He is not a judge representing a church or a God. He is supposed to be a judge representing American citizens, regardless of their religion.
Just to play devil's advocate, the notion of civil disobedience is only appropriate.....


I think this guy has picked the wrong battle and is standing alone, even among the fellow justices of the State High Court. Too bad we didn't get the same media coverage when whoever filed suit demanding removal of the monument.
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