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Old 08-24-2003, 01:29 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Seabird
Of all the things in the world that are bad, how could anyone see so much hatred in a religious symbol only meant in good intentions? No one is forcing their beliefs on anyone. I can't believe most people even care if it exists or where it is. There are too many extremists trying to read things into things making a big stink out of it.

The guy who brought up the Koran thing was trying to make a point- most times when it's something Christian, or Judeo-Christian, people get all shitty and start hollering about forcing beliefs, freedom, etc. But when it's another religion, they usually start defending its right to exist, religious freedom, and
<snipped part>
I know the radicals are annoying, but this monument really isn't hurting anyone nearly as much as the fighting. If you don't want to see it, don't look at it. If you think it was a waste of money, think how much more tax money will be wasted to move it.
I think one of the reasons this is burning so many of us is BECAUSE so many of those "bad" things going on in the world are often directly linked, in one way or another, to a predominant religion trying to stuff their ideas/mores/values/etc. down the throats of anyone nearby, especially those who don't hold those religious faiths. This country is mostly Christian, yes, but, once again, it is about the minority being able to say NO to the overwhelming majority trying to change them.

Those of us you call "extremists" are pretty much everyday people who have something to fear from what we see as extremists on the other side...and this, a religious symbol in a public courthouse, is an extreme thing. It's a symbol of one man who is trying to force his religion on others. It belongs in a church--none of us "extremists" are trying to say that it should be taken out and destroyed (Dixie Chicks albums, anyone?), just put where it belongs and taken from where it does NOT belong.

Again, that's why the Koran quote is such a hotpoint: There are so many christians, and only so many muslims in this coutry. It is hard to fight the majority, especially when the highest office in the country is held right now by a man who seems to think that he has a direct link to his god's ear. I doubt that, anytime soon, christianity will be under direct attack/threat and in danger of disappearing in the US. But other religions have been under attack since day 1. Hell, even before day 1, the native americans here were under attack--by christians. So this is why people get all "shitty" when the subject is chirsitanity. It's david vs. goliath (to use a christian story), and david needs more protection from goliath, or he'll be swallowed up.
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Old 08-24-2003, 03:22 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seabird
Here's an example: several years ago, at a college my brother was attending, someone erected a cross where some students prayed. Of course the shit hit the fan and they were made to take it down. Soon after, someone erected a Buddhist statue near the same area. No one complained. When someone finally did, they were told the rant about religious freedom, rights, etc. Come to find out, it was the Christian students with the cross who had put it there to prove the hypocrisy, and they were proven right.
Interesting. This goes to my original question of the motives behind the lawsuit to remove the monument. My guess is that your description is not an isolated case. Especially on the "enlightened" campuses of our country.
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Old 08-24-2003, 03:24 PM   #33
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This country is mostly Christian, yes, but, once again, it is about the minority being able to say NO to the overwhelming majority trying to change them.

The US is NOT mostly Christian. We are well down the path of a secular majority.
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Old 08-24-2003, 03:27 PM   #34
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Originally posted by enggirl
Hell, even before day 1, the native americans here were under attack--by christians. So this is why people get all "shitty" when the subject is chirsitanity. It's david vs. goliath (to use a christian story), and david needs more protection from goliath, or he'll be swallowed up.
Christians were the ones who attacked Native Americans?? I'm not sure what viewpoint you are using for your revisionist history.


PS. David & Goliath is a Jewish "story".
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Old 08-24-2003, 04:05 PM   #35
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Yes, David and Goliath is a Jewish story, and the 10 Commandments are Jewish too, Moses from the Old Testament. I honestly don't believe putting up a monument of them is shoving Christianity down anyone's throat. (If it were any religion, it would be Judaism!) No one is forcing them to believe anything just because they are there. No one is going to take you away in the night because of it. Still, regardless of their religion, I can't image anyone having problems with the basic sense of common decency put forth in those commandments. It's no religious lecture, just don't kill, don't steal, yeah, stuff all laws are based on anyway. This controversy is very outrageous.
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Old 08-24-2003, 05:08 PM   #36
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Originally posted by Leeloo
Yes, David and Goliath is a Jewish story, and the 10 Commandments are Jewish too, Moses from the Old Testament. I honestly don't believe putting up a monument of them is shoving Christianity down anyone's throat. (If it were any religion, it would be Judaism!) No one is forcing them to believe anything just because they are there. No one is going to take you away in the night because of it. Still, regardless of their religion, I can't image anyone having problems with the basic sense of common decency put forth in those commandments. It's no religious lecture, just don't kill, don't steal, yeah, stuff all laws are based on anyway. This controversy is very outrageous.
Not within the context of Alabama politics. Read a book about Alabama politics, like I said in a previous post, to understand this stuff. It's not isolated. For some of us, anyway, it's a matter of getting the Dixiecrats the hell out of our politics, not religion, God, or the Ten Commandments. Relatively few people have screamed at the governor for having prayer breakfasts at the governor's mansion, and there have been no lawsuits. What's the difference? Moore is in the Dixiecrat-demogogue-stir-up-the-fear tradition that's been so damn damaging to my state; the governor is not.
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Old 08-26-2003, 07:10 PM   #37
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leeloo -- imagine you are Muslim and have to go to court for some traffic violation. you walk in the door and there are the 10 Commandments. how would that make you feel?

the judicial branch of our government is supposed to be fair. Justice is often depicted in federal court setting as a woman with a blindfold and scales, not a woman with a cross and scales. placing that monument there creates a bias in that building, whether obvious or not. and that building should not have any bias on anyone who enters its doors.
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Old 08-26-2003, 07:27 PM   #38
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Now, the decor of our courthouses can create a presumption of unfairness based on how someone feels?

The monument does not de facto create a bias. Moore, on the other hand, is a problem. But this religious symbol witchhunt is out of control.
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Old 08-26-2003, 08:56 PM   #39
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The monument doesn't bother me that much. OK, I don't love it. But to me the big problem is Moore. The local newspapers are very conservative and even they aren't exactly his biggest supporters.
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Old 08-27-2003, 11:37 AM   #40
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Now, the decor of our courthouses can create a presumption of unfairness based on how someone feels?

The monument does not de facto create a bias. Moore, on the other hand, is a problem. But this religious symbol witchhunt is out of control.
Then put up a monument that represents every US citizen. I wouldn't want to walk into a courthouse that somehow represented other US citizens but not me.

What if you were a US representative walking into a global summit of sorts and every flag was up except the US flag. Would you feel as if there would be no bias?
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Old 08-28-2003, 06:56 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Now, the decor of our courthouses can create a presumption of unfairness based on how someone feels?

The monument does not de facto create a bias. Moore, on the other hand, is a problem. But this religious symbol witchhunt is out of control.
"Gee, I'm on a jury trying an athiest for a crime. Well, he's not Christian and as the commandments remind us, we need to put God back in the law. Then this guy is probably guilty."

nb -- you may not feel that way or think that way but there are people who do, people who sit in front of a court house praying and laying on steps in protest. If you're an athiest, do you want to have someone like this on a jury of your "peers"? It may not create bias but it introduces bias.

A court house is a court house and a church is a church. They are not the same thing.
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Old 08-28-2003, 07:04 PM   #42
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Both the athiest and Christian are to make their decisions based on the facts and the law. Spiritual beliefs are not a basis for inclusion/exclusion from a jury.

Courthouses are the focal point for all sorts of protests. Again, jurors must not be influenced by such activities and are so directed by the judge. To the extent you believe this cannot happen, it cannot happen for multitudes of factors, not just spiritual belief.
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