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Old 10-09-2002, 11:28 PM   #1
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Respect For Life

(NOTE TO MY FELLOW FYM MODS: Here's a thread to keep you busy while I'm away! Have fun! Bwahahahahaha!!! )

For my fall break from school, I'm going to an area of the South Bronx in NYC to do some service projects. Our team and the other teams (who are going to Camden and Philadelphia to do similar work) attended a commissioning Mass on Sunday, and the priest gave his homily about "Respect for Life"--surely a familiar theme to many Catholics.

However, as many of you may be aware, I'm somewhat pro-choice. Or at least I was. I'm not the sort of person who is swayed by one not-bad sermon on one average Sunday. But while listening to his homily, I couldn't help but think about abortion and what it really means. And what a society that allows abortion is saying about the value of human life. I've always countered that argument by saying that the life of the mother is just as valuable and meaningful as the life of the fetus, and who are any of us to decide which life means *more*?

But I've gotten to thinking that perhaps abortion also devalues the life of the mother. It says, "You cannot raise this child. Society does not want it. You, and your baby, are useless." That disturbs me. I still don't know how I feel about it, because I am not insensitive to the stories of back-alley abortions (which do still happen--maybe not as much in the U.S., but elsewhere) and postnatal infanticide. And I still feel that Roe v. Wade was such a hard-fought battle, and a landmark for the struggle for women to govern their own bodies and lives.

So my pro-choice self is fighting with my pro-life self. My hardnosed political scientist is at war with my touchy-feely Buddhist-Christian ethicist. I've always been opposed to the death penalty, so I'm not going to get into that as much. But I'm interested in seeing what Interland has to say--not specifically about abortion, really, but about the whole idea of "Respect for Life" and what it entails.

I'm outtie. See you Sunday.
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Old 10-09-2002, 11:41 PM   #2
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Re: Respect For Life

Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
(NOTE TO MY FELLOW FYM MODS
It says, "You cannot raise this child. Society does not want it. You, and your baby, are useless." That disturbs me. I still don't know how I feel about it, because I am not insensitive to the stories of back-alley

I've always been opposed to the death penalty. See you Sunday.
Pax-

You hit it on the head here kiddo

When u have babies of your own..you may even more fully realize this




Death Penality-whole different issue.
The ppl sentence to death are not innocent like the babies.
The innocent should always live.
Ppl on death row usually are there by a consequence of their actions..
The babies are there by no action of their own and are innocent.
Let the innocent live.

Have a great trip

diamond
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Old 10-10-2002, 12:02 AM   #3
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Re: Re: Respect For Life

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Originally posted by diamond

Pax-

You hit it on the head here kiddo

When u have babies of your own..you may even more fully realize this


Kids are only on loan from God - life that is truly precious.
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Old 10-10-2002, 05:52 AM   #4
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go ahead and flame me

yeah I know...I prolley get slammed for this one....

I feel that abortion would be wrong for me....it's not something I could ever bring myself to do. However, what is a good choice for me, may not a good choice for someone else, and I can't dictate the choices that another person has the liberty to make. I think everyone should have the freedom to make a well informed decision. Whether I agree with that decision or not is really irrelevant. While I wish that no woman would make the choice to have an abortion, some do, and at least in America they have for the most part the freedom to have it done in a clean and safe environment. I think what scares me the most if Roe v Wade is reversed is the number of "chop shops" that would arise, the number of illnesses and deaths that would occur due to unsafe and self inflicted abortions.
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Old 10-10-2002, 10:32 AM   #5
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this is a great post pax. you've obviously been looking very hard at the WHOLE issue which is admirable. i'm pro-life because i believe life starts at conception. besides the fact that a heart beat and brain waves are evident early in a pregnancy, i feel human beings are endowed with a soul the moment they are created. because of this i feel that abortion, regardless of when performed, is murder. although i truly do sympathize with women in this situation, i cannot, in good conscience, agree with their actions. if it's considered a life when it's a planned pregnancy, it's a life every time. i feel we need to focus and spend more on education to instill some sort of responsibility in people and to hopefully prevent the unplanned pregnancy from happening. people need to have better access to birth control. there need to be programs and resources for women who do find themselves in this position so they know they have options besides abortion and so they don't have to face it by themselves. in college i was involved in a women's crisis pregnancy center and i feel these people truly do make a difference. although i will say the best goal is to prevent the pregnancies. i just don't feel we should play God and get to choose who lives and who dies. this (and many other reasons) is also is why i am against the death penalty. i agree that it's a different situation because the individuals involved are not innocent, but the way the system is set up has too many flaws to be reliable. as long as humans are making the decision regarding the death penalty, it will be fatally flawed because there is always room for error. and as long as it possible that an innocent person could mistakenly be executed, i cannot support it.
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Old 10-10-2002, 10:53 AM   #6
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I agree with Screaming about a life being born from the moment of conception. Which is why I'm pro-life.

It's hard, b/c people say: 'what if a woman is raped'..etc. a situation I would never wish on anyone.. if I try to imagine myself in this situation, I think my soul would be very very sad. I'd pray a lot for guidance, and probably end up keeping the child, even if it was put up for adoption? Such a hard subject - esp. when you're not really threatened by its reality.

Another issue my friend and I were oddly enough discussing last night is "selective abortion", which comes into play after a woman has received in vitro fertilization, and has something like 5-8 children growing inside of her. This, first of all, is not normal for a human woman's body to support and produce that many babies at once. So what do you do- perform "selective abortion" so that you can give the best possible life to two or three children, or do you bear them all. I can't remember the family's name, but a few years ago a woman had eight children, and now some of them suffer from cerebral palsy to many other birth deficiencies. -->IMO, don't do the in vitro fertilization in the first place.

tough subject.
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Old 10-10-2002, 01:35 PM   #7
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Quote:
But I've gotten to thinking that perhaps abortion also devalues the life of the mother. It says, "You cannot raise this child. Society does not want it. You, and your baby, are useless."
I don't think that abortions puts that stigma on a woman, I think that for the most part, if the woman is *aware* enough to know that she herseld cannot take care of a child, and that she cannot afford or have the resources to carry out a pregnancy and then put it up for adoption, she does not look at herself as useless, but is looking at the subject *realistically*. I cannot speak for all people of course, but in my workings with women going thru this situation, they have felt more of a stigma from society just thinking that she is a "bad person" all around for wanting an abortion, but not "if I get this done, I'm useless".

Quote:
still don't know how I feel about it, because I am not insensitive to the stories of back-alley abortions (which do still happen--maybe not as much in the U.S., but elsewhere)
Unfortuneltly is does still happen a lot in the states due to the zillion varying laws on parental concent. In 30 of the states there are these laws which force a lot of young women into back-alley abortion type situations.

Now onto my opinion which is probaly not too appreciated-
I am pro-choice. For me it comes down to this:
I do not believe the gov't has a right to tell ANYONE what they can or cannot do with their own bodies. That is the underlying issue that a lot of people dismiss.
I also feel that it is not up to me to decide what is right for another person, I may not agree with someone's descison but I don't think that gives me the right to take that option away from them. It is already attrocious that there are so many parental consent laws on the books for young women, these cause so many problems, take all that with what would happen if Roe v. Wade was completley reversed and women were forced into dangerous situations again for trying to seek out abortions, and we would have just a horrible amount of deaths on our hands. Because as we all know, whether it's drugs, abortion, alchohol or whatever, even if it's illegal, people are going to do it.
I want the option to remain safe, legal, and available.
I also want to see more more more more family planning programs made available, and not attacked, education is the key to stopping unwanted pregnancies like screaming flower said, we have to have access to information, we have to educate about birth control, there needs to be more sex ed in schools, and just NOT hide things from our children the way we tend to do.
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Old 10-10-2002, 01:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkysgrrrl
education is the key to stopping unwanted pregnancies like screaming flower said, we have to have access to information, we have to educate about birth control, there needs to be more sex ed in schools, and just NOT hide things from our children the way we tend to do.
my hope is that this point is something ALL sides can agree on. it's the only way to reduce the number of abortions, and is the best (or maybe i should say most realistic) fight against AIDS and STDs as well. we shouldn't be afraid to discuss these things. it's to everyone's benefit to educate.
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Old 10-10-2002, 01:46 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Screaming Flower


my hope is that this point is something ALL sides can agree on. it's the only way to reduce the number of abortions, and is the best (or maybe i should say most realistic) fight against AIDS and STDs as well. we shouldn't be afraid to discuss these things. it's to everyone's benefit to educate.

exactly.
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Old 10-10-2002, 01:56 PM   #10
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<----------pro choice.

<----------against fertility drugs

<----------believes fertility drugs cause a ton of harm including unwanted pregnancies (read above post about selective abortion.) I cannot fathom not being able to have a baby, but I truly cannot understand the greed behind taking fertility drugs so you can have your own baby with the possibility of becoming pregnant with like 33 babies (said with valley girl accent) and not being able to support them. I would have to say selective abortion is the most evil thing written so far as #1 you kill healthy *wanted* babies #2 the people taking these fertitlity drugs could have adopted in the first place.

I get very angry when I hear about communities and companies coming out and sending support (money, diapers, cars in some cases) to families who have had 6 babies after taking fertility drugs. If the people cannot support this many kids on their own, they should have no right taking those drugs.

I digress, I understand the pro-life stance, and although I do not agree with it, I think there is some relevance to the following analogy

Abortion:getting rid of unwanted children :: Fertility drugs:bringing in unwanted children.

Which is worse?

If you are going to limit one, you have to limit the other. I do pity those who cannot naturally conceve, however, I am against those who will do anything to conceve including bringing unwanted, unplanned, and unexpected children into the mix to be supported by others.

Do not even get me started on the death penalty.

Referring to the title of this thread, respect for life, there are many who believe life should be respected no matter what *unconditionally* and many of those who believe this have very high conviction. There are also others who have no respect for life and are clearly evil, however there are many of us in between in the gray area who believe that we live in a modern world, are not all that religious, who beleive that we have to live our lives in a way in which we can keep control over own race as there may not be a higher power to do so.

We all have to be open-minded here and understand this...
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Old 10-10-2002, 02:03 PM   #11
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the fertility drug thang -
meant to touch on that, and forgot...I don't understand WHY people do that to themselves...it's just utterly ridiculous to me, having a child shouldn't be about "oh we screwed and look what we got in return, isn't the baby that we made so great" It's about loving another person, wanting to take care of that person, if people want a child so bad ADOPT!!
There's a novel idea...
Take those thousands of dollars you'd spend on fertility and put it towards a child who really needs and wants your love and who is already here.
arrg....that whole thing really frustrates me
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Old 10-10-2002, 02:06 PM   #12
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The key is not what a women can do with her own body, but when does the life of the unborn become human life. After all, a fetus's or unborn baby's body is not the womens body. It may reside in her body, but it is not her's. So the question is does the unborn have the same rights that all baby's outside the womens body do.

Looking at some interesting situations in the law, it appears that the unborn do have the rights of those that have been born. For instance another person can be convicted of manslaughter or murder if their actions result in the death of a womens unborn baby. The only way that can be legal is if the unborn are considered to have the same rights as those that have been born.

It is a complicated issue, but it rest on whether the unborn are human and have the rights of the born, and not on "its my choice" or "its my body". Clearly at any stage that the unborn are defined as being human, abortion at that point and beyond would be murder except in extreme circumstances.
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Old 10-10-2002, 02:21 PM   #13
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A lot of those laws regarding unborn children were pushed by pro-life backers so that they could be used to say that an unborn child has the same rights as a human.
That I don't agree with.

And I was stating that a large issue with many pro-choice supporters is about the gov't having control over one's own free will to decide what to do with their own body, it may not be what the pro-life people are concerned about, but it is a large concern to many.
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Old 10-10-2002, 03:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by ouizy
<----------pro choice.

<----------against fertility drugs



Abortion:getting rid of unwanted children :: Fertility drugs:bringing in unwanted children.

Which is worse?

If you are going to limit one, you have to limit the other.
But aren't you saying you are in favor of limiting one (fertility drugs), but not the other (abortion)?
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Old 10-10-2002, 03:10 PM   #15
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Re: go ahead and flame me

Quote:
Originally posted by daisybean
yeah I know...I prolley get slammed for this one....

I feel that abortion would be wrong for me....it's not something I could ever bring myself to do. However, what is a good choice for me, may not a good choice for someone else, and I can't dictate the choices that another person has the liberty to make. I think everyone should have the freedom to make a well informed decision. Whether I agree with that decision or not is really irrelevant. While I wish that no woman would make the choice to have an abortion, some do, and at least in America they have for the most part the freedom to have it done in a clean and safe environment. I think what scares me the most if Roe v Wade is reversed is the number of "chop shops" that would arise, the number of illnesses and deaths that would occur due to unsafe and self inflicted abortions.
I agree so much with you. I love (thats right, love) the fact that people have to CHOICE of abortion. I dont think I could ever have an abortion myself but thats me, not someone else.
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