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Old 10-11-2002, 08:21 AM   #31
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I believe there will be a day in the next 30 years, where technology will have advanced to the point to be able to support the life of a child at any stage after conception outside the womb.

What then?

If for example, a girl feels the need to have an abortion she won't have to - she can elect for early adoption. Have the baby removed (at whatever stage) and then other couples can adopt the baby at they baby bank.

At this point, the question of when life begins is pointless.

Would anyone choose to kill the baby even then?

Mark
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Old 10-11-2002, 09:30 AM   #32
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What if a 16 year old girl is raped, gets pregnant, never wanted a child? If she chooses to abort, her decision may be right.

What worries me is that there are so many abortions for stupid reasons. Just because the parents were unable to be a little more careful, an abortion has to be made? That kind of morality is not ok. This is disrespecting life.

What if the parents make tests and know the child will be handicapped severly? I think the child has the right to live. But it is only the right decision if the parents really want to bring it up.

To say the truth I have to admit that I was lucky in some situations. Lucky that the girl I was with didn´t get pregnant, because I wouldn´t have known how to decide (anyway, the decision would have been mainly hers - there goes emancipation).
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Old 10-11-2002, 09:34 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
I believe there will be a day in the next 30 years, where technology will have advanced to the point to be able to support the life of a child at any stage after conception outside the womb.

What then?

If for example, a girl feels the need to have an abortion she won't have to - she can elect for early adoption. Have the baby removed (at whatever stage) and then other couples can adopt the baby at they baby bank.

At this point, the question of when life begins is pointless.

Would anyone choose to kill the baby even then?

Mark
I wonder if the world would, in fact, be drowned with unwanted babies. After all, apart from the diseases, it's the fear of getting an unwanted pregnancy that makes women use protection, and if the problem of abortion could be solved with just a bit of surgery, well that makes for an extra reason to be even more unreasonable about unprotected sex.

Or, in case the operation was a limited option because of the cost or some other regulation, then the things would be back at where they were 30 years ago, with abortion as the only option of getting rid of pregnancy.

I agree that the whole subject of when a bunch of cells becomes a "person" with legal and moral rights is extremely murky and can be debated until everyone's fingers drop off. Personally I don't think that a mere presence of life or even ability to feel pain automatically indicates a presence of a human "soul", for the lack of better word. I think that an embryo becomes a human being as it develops and there's no magical moment when it suddenly switches from a non-person to person. It can be argued that it's wrong to put an end to even a -potential- baby, but really, if you wanted to take it even further, then every sperm and every egg is a potential person waiting to happen.

I guess that whatever nature had in mind has its purpose, but sometimes I wish that whoever or whatever designed humans didn't make pregnancy such a bloody easy, animalistic thing.
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Old 10-11-2002, 11:54 AM   #34
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The potential human senerio is interesting. But one can draw a line at conception because, clearly, before conception, the entity in question does not exist. The egg is there, but it is unknown which one of the Billions of sperm will fertilize if any. A Billion different possibilities. You can only begin to question if something has a right or deserves this or that if it exist. Before conception, the entity in question does not exist.
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Old 10-11-2002, 01:02 PM   #35
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A lot of good points to respond to

Quote:
Originally posted by Saracene
What if the parents make tests and know the child will be handicapped severly? I think the child has the right to live. But it is only the right decision if the parents really want to bring it up
I agree with you that the child has the right to live, but this right is not contingent upon the parents wanting the child or not.


Quote:
Originally posted by Saracene

It can be argued that it's wrong to put an end to even a -potential- baby, but really, if you wanted to take it even further, then every sperm and every egg is a potential person waiting to happen.
Separately, they do not form a human. Only when the sperm fertilizes the egg does the organism become a human, so I'd have to say that when they are independent of each other that's where the argument can stop (or begin).
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Old 10-11-2002, 01:06 PM   #36
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Originally posted by Sparkysgrrrl
One idea put forth by Carl Sagan I never hear anyone discuss-

He suggested that one factor that makes us uniquely human is the ability to think, which would mean that we become persons when the cerebral cortex is in place which starts around the 24th to 27th week of pregnancy -- the sixth month.

Thinking... too bad no one can prove another person's ability to think, in or out of the womb. Another factor that makes us uniquely human is a soul, too bad we can't "prove" that either.

I think it comes down to what this thread title is about: Respect of Life.
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Old 10-11-2002, 01:08 PM   #37
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But aren't you saying you are in favor of limiting one (fertility drugs), but not the other (abortion)?
I do tend to ramble, I guess my point was that if you are going to limit one (abortion) you have to limit the other (fertility drugs.) AS I do not see this happening any time soon, fertility drugs are not being limited, nor should abortion.
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Old 10-11-2002, 01:09 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm
Thinking... too bad no one can prove another person's ability to think, in or out of the womb. Another factor that makes us uniquely human is a soul, too bad we can't "prove" that either.

I think it comes down to what this thread title is about: Respect of Life.
Well stated Oliveu2cm

I know some adults who don't seem to be thinking - but their still human.
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Old 10-11-2002, 01:42 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm


Thinking... too bad no one can prove another person's ability to think, in or out of the womb. Another factor that makes us uniquely human is a soul, too bad we can't "prove" that either.

I think it comes down to what this thread title is about: Respect of Life.
Actually, the thinking that makes us uniquely human is in the neocortex, it is advanced in such a way that is vastly different than animals, this part of our brain begins to delop around 6 months, again, wish I had my books with me so I could explain it better....He talks about it in either 'Dragons of Eden' or 'Billions and Billions', both excellent reads.

As for soul, I don't think that is something that is uniquely human, if humans have a soul, I see no reason for animals to not have a soul and that gets into our own personal beliefs, not something that is scientifically proven or should be used to make laws.

Also, the idea of being able to put up for adoption a recently fertilized egg probably wouldn't change much on the abortion front. Many people don't want to put children up for adoption/foster care because they know how hard that is on a child and that there's a very good chance that the child will not be placed in a proper home. While there are many people out there wanting and waiting to adopt, if it was really at the demand we would like to think it is, then there wouldn't be so much child abuse/poverty/sickness/dispare that there is in the world.
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Old 10-11-2002, 02:18 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkysgrrrl

Actually, the thinking that makes us uniquely human is in the neocortex, it is advanced in such a way that is vastly different than animals, this part of our brain begins to delop around 6 months, again, wish I had my books with me so I could explain it better....He talks about it in either 'Dragons of Eden' or 'Billions and Billions', both excellent reads.
What I mean is literally no one can prove this. If we go into this discussion it gets to the point that you can't prove anything besides your self, and that loses the focus of this thread.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkysgrrrl

As for soul, I don't think that is something that is uniquely human, if humans have a soul, I see no reason for animals to not have a soul and that gets into our own personal beliefs, not something that is scientifically proven or should be used to make laws.
Nothing is scientifically proven. See my above statement. The only thing you can prove is that you yoursel exist (you are aware of your thoughts). this gets into existentialism. But my point is that science is faith as much as believing in soul is faith.

I see the "you can't prove anything" argument can be used obviously that 'you can't prove it's human then either', so I will go with scientific facts and assume that we can prove we all have brains can see, etc... (sorry for bringing in another discussion, i'll try to keep to topic lol).

The "moment of conception" is when the sperm and egg create one cell. This cell is unique- never before has this exact individual human existed, and never again will another exactly like this exist. This being is complete- nothing else (besides oxygen and nutrition) will be added to it in its lifetime to make it a human. It's programmed within itself, and although it depends on its mother for food and shelter, it's totally new and unique. Killing this is killing a human being.

The "you are human when you start thinking" is just one man's (or one group's) POV. Until he can prove the opposite is NOT true (PROVE that you are not human before you start to think) then this theory doesn't hold up.



Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkysgrrrl
While there are many people out there wanting and waiting to adopt, if it was really at the demand we would like to think it is, then there wouldn't be so much child abuse/poverty/sickness/dispare that there is in the world.
I don't think that this is entirely true (esp. since most parents wish to adopt babies, rather than teenagers where you see more of the problems). There are about two million couples waiting for adoption. Furthermore, each of these couples would want two or three, if available. Many will take hard-to-place children with special needs. Citation
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Old 10-11-2002, 02:23 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkysgrrrl
As for soul, I don't think that is something that is uniquely human, if humans have a soul, I see no reason for animals to not have a soul and that gets into our own personal beliefs, not something that is scientifically proven or should be used to make laws.
As a Christian, I do not consider my faith a “personal belief”. That implies that faith is on par with personal opinions. It may look that way for those who do not live by faith, but for believers, it is much more.

God’s Word already shapes our laws and has done so for thousands of years. And we have done this in the US without establishing a state religion.
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Old 10-11-2002, 02:50 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


As a Christian, I do not consider my faith a ?personal belief?. That implies that faith is on par with personal opinions. It may look that way for those who do not live by faith, but for believers, it is much more.

God?s Word already shapes our laws and has done so for thousands of years. And we have done this in the US without establishing a state religion.
Excellent post. I feel like I'm a little strung out from thinking so much about this, but - maybe I shouldn't have dismissed in my last post the "sorry this is another discussion entirely." I think the abortion issue is coming down to "where does human life start" and to answer that question you must take into account God.

If you don't then you're saying "there is no God" and if there is no God then anyone can do whatever the heck they want, kill or not kill, they can act nice but there is no reason to, they may feel they have a moral obligation to follow the laws but they really don't if there is no God. If there is no God then none of this even matters, and everything can be legalized. (Of course not everything is legalized- like nbcrusader says, God has shaped our laws without the US ever establishing a state religion.)

It comes down to this fact: You can't prove anything besides the thoughts in your head. Are you hooked up to a computer, or is your world some kid's science project, or did another higher being create the world we live in? The true answer to this question will reveal the answer to if abortion is okay or not.
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Old 10-11-2002, 03:11 PM   #43
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It is scientifically proven lol
Read up on it, it's not a theory that our brains have different functions and parts than any other being on this planet, it's quite fascinating.

(not saying that I believe that thinking is what should define human's as beings, just bringing in that idea, BUT the ability to think for ourselves in terms other than basic "food, shelter, warmth" is what seperates us from other life forms on this earth)

This can turn into a whole other debate about science, mabey I'll make a thread on that sometime (when I've got my books and not just my scattered brain )
But I don't understand what you are saying, claiming that nothing is scientifically proven is quite a bold statement.

nbcrusader - I do believe that faith is someones own personal thoughts, convictions, what have you and that everyone is free to choose whatever religion that the feel closest to (or to not choose one at all) To use as the basis for a law "I'm so-and-so religion and I believe this, therefore it is the only truth" is what I'm saying is wrong.
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Old 10-11-2002, 03:36 PM   #44
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to answer that question you must take into account God.

...I for one disagree...





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Old 10-11-2002, 03:39 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkysgrrrl
It is scientifically proven lol
Read up on it, it's not a theory that our brains have different functions and parts than any other being on this planet, it's quite fascinating.

(not saying that I believe that thinking is what should define human's as beings, just bringing in that idea, BUT the ability to think for ourselves in terms other than basic "food, shelter, warmth" is what seperates us from other life forms on this earth)
Ok sorry this is where i was getting confused. I understand different part of our brains perform different functions- but i didn't agree that thinking is the moment when a baby is considered a human.

Quote:
This can turn into a whole other debate about science, mabey I'll make a thread on that sometime (when I've got my books and not just my scattered brain )
But I don't understand what you are saying, claiming that nothing is scientifically proven is quite a bold statement.

Good idea, I'd need my notes too. The whole "you can't prove anything" takes some explaining but in a nutshell:

You can't see anything, since what you see is just an image reflected in your eye. the same correlations can be drawn between all the senses- and basically it can be whittled down to the fact that you cannot prove anything except yourself exists (sayin "I see it, it must exist" is not enough since we are not actually SEEING a tree-for example- but an image of that tree that has been reflected in our eyes). If you follow me, you see how science is a leap of faith too.

obviously you can't walk around assuming no one else exists or that you can't see anything- we operate under basic laws that we assume to be true (that other people are alive, not stimulated inside my brain). but you can't PROVE someone else exists. Amazing isn't it?

... like you said, this'd be good for another thread.
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