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Old 07-09-2004, 07:20 PM   #1
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Resistance Fighters or Terrorists?

http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/World...40709_186.html

Quote:
...American military officials say.

The officials told The Associated Press the guerrillas can call on loyalists to boost their forces to as high as 20,000 and have enough popular support among nationalist Iraqis angered by the presence of U.S. troops that they cannot be militarily defeated.
So are the US troops fighting against a revolt of the Iraqis not against terrorists?
Was "terrorist" the cheap excuse to justify the way they were treated in prisons?

Quote:
Analysts learned that ridding Iraq of U.S. troops was the motivator for most insurgents, not the formation of an Islamic state.
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Old 07-09-2004, 07:52 PM   #2
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Klaus,

Once again, the vast majority of the insurgency lies in the Sunni Triangle where Saddam is still popular. These Sunni tribes have seen their elevated position in Iraq under Saddam destroyed and so of course they are going to fight. Much of the "Special Republican Guard" and other security forces of Saddam retreated to this area and form the core leadership of the insurgency.

Poll after poll has shown that the majority of Iraqi's want US troops to stay in the country and say their lives are currently better than they were before the war started.

There are 25 million people in Iraq, and it would be a shame if the media and others decide to present a tiny group of 20,000 people as the "real" Iraq and how most Iraqi's feel. The overwhelming majority of Iraqi' desire a better life and are not interested in driving a car downtown to blow up other Iraqi's or coalition soldiers rebuilding the country.

The coalition has been safeguarding and rebuilding Iraq from what Saddam did to it, for over a year now. It is sick and discusting what these terrorist (yes they are terrorist) are doing to hundreds of innocent Iraqi's as well as soldiers and civil affairs personal from all over the world, working hard every day to improve the lives of all Iraqi's.

The only question now is when are France and Germany going to join the rest of the world in helping the Iraqi people build a new government and a new society. Saddam is gone now and the only issue is the development of stable and democratic Iraq. Unfortunately, France and Germany are MIA inside Iraq.
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Old 07-09-2004, 08:15 PM   #3
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One man's terrorist is another man's freedon fighter.

IMO they are not terrorists but are fighting against a foreign invader.

If the US was invaded and you took up arms, would you be a terrorist.
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Old 07-09-2004, 10:47 PM   #4
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They are not representatives of their own government - they are seeking to disrupt power, not for the country, but for a select group of followers of a iman or two.

How much freedom do you gain by videotaped beheadings??
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Old 07-10-2004, 12:42 AM   #5
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Quote:
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Firefighters fight fires
Crimefighters fight crime
what do freedom fighters fight?
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Old 07-10-2004, 04:42 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Firefighters fight fires
Crimefighters fight crime
what do freedom fighters fight?
The freedom from being occupied by a foreign nation.
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Old 07-10-2004, 05:41 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Celticfc
One man's terrorist is another man's freedon fighter.

IMO they are not terrorists but are fighting against a foreign invader.

If the US was invaded and you took up arms, would you be a terrorist.
Really, so you fight against a foreign invader buy murdering thousands of your fellow countryman?

Do you attack and blow up Iraqi men training to be policeman?

Do set bombs on the roads murdering innocent Iraqi women and childern?

The majority of the people killed by these so called "Freedom Fighters" are not foreign soldiers but IRAQI PEOPLE!



It is absolutely incredible, that one would refer to Saddam's best trained forces as "Freedom Fighters", the same forces that helped murder 1 million people over the past 20 years in and around Iraq.
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Old 07-10-2004, 06:44 AM   #8
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Damn straight Sting2 not to mention the fact that there are significant numbers of foreign terrorists and foreign government agents (2 Iranian Intelligence officers were captured a fortnight ago with plans for a carbombing) within the country who perform such valliant acts as shelling schoolchildren, blowing up police recruits and assassinating Iraqi politicians (the real patriots), supporting those who fight the Iraqi government is not good for the Iraqi People, it is not good for peace and it is not good for anybody who claims to be anti-war.
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Old 07-10-2004, 07:26 AM   #9
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Get something straight as well, the ideology of these groups is not freedom unless your definition of freedom includes the following clause.
1) The right to own women
2) The right to have your tounge sliced out with a razorblade if you disagree with the unelected government.
3) The right of freedom to conform to the governments will, no exceptions.
4) The right of extermination for all ethnic minorites and political enemies.
5) The rights of Sharia Law.

These are what these types desire, they do not want a democratic and free Iraq they desire chaos from which a dictatorial or theocratic regime may emerge, they are the baathist remnants and fundamentalist muslim elements. These minorities will not bring freedom to Iraq that is the job of the Iraqi people and the appointed government (until elections next year) with a lot of help from the US and its coalition partners.
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Old 07-10-2004, 11:46 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
They are not representatives of their own government - they are seeking to disrupt power, not for the country, but for a select group of followers of a iman or two.

How much freedom do you gain by videotaped beheadings??
More to that videotape than meets the eye.

They dont have their own government, just a puppet government installed by the the US.

If you looking for someone to blame in this mess. look to america for it was they who supplied the chemicals in the first place in the war against Iran. America turned a blind eye because Iran was the enemy.

Israel is constantly breaking international laws, do you see America invading them. Not a chance.

It will be interesting to see what happens with this illegal wall that Israel has put up.

On another note here are some terrorists down the years.

George Washington
Ghandhi
Mandela

all terrorists acccording to the brits.

Be very aware when people are labelled a terrorist.
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Old 07-10-2004, 01:44 PM   #11
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Ahem, who provided the chemicals
France, Germany, China and the big fish, the USSR . They were backing Saddam a lot more than the US did in the few years it actually had any open dialogue with the Iraqi regime. Russian were always masters of using chemical weapons I belive that their combined Chemical and Biological weapons output was 1000 times that of the US during the cold war. And then of course the French who's pan-Arab agreements ensure that the Islamic world gets a voice in the UN security council as well as mates rates of nuclear reactors (Who build Saddams reactor at Osirak, you guesed it The French, you should see Jauque Chirac giving Saddam a guided tour of a nuclear reactor, like a kid in a candy store he was), China sold Saddam SCUD missiles but I mean whats nuclear weapon plants, chemical and biological agents, fermenters, fighter planes, tanks, guns, AA equipment compared to the USA giving Saddam sattelite information about Iranian troop movements and the ability to purchase a limited ammount duel use equipment from American companys. Gee I mean those Iranians under Ayatolla Khomeni were such great folks, truly respected human rights and create a much better situation in the Muslim world than the Status Quo did in the 1980's, Imagine a world where Iraq fell as would the gulf states, the Miracle of a Pan Islamic Superpower bringing the Japanese, Chinese and European economies to a grinding halt, the ongoing peace and harmony that would only have been achieved through the utter destruction of Israel and the subsequent nuclear war that follows if the Israelis pull out a Goliath operation obbliterating millions of people into fine powdery ash but it would all be great because the US didnt support Saddam in the slightest.

And puppet government? I hope that you understand the meaning of Interim, the entire concept is that you install a group of guys checked out by the UN and then have them run the country until elections can be held (there are things to do before a free and fair election may be run), I suppose that the elections themselves are going to be rigged no matter what the result is, I mean the Iraqis could elect Saddam and reinstate him and it would still be a US/Mossad plot. No thats just plain stupid, im sorry, Osama Bin Laden would make more sense because he is really an invention of Bush and used for his own political agenda, I saw that movie and I belive Moore, Bush is the dumbest president ever that was able to craft a series of complex political machinations with such a masterful degree it makes for beautiful machiavellian art.

Israel is breaking international law all the time because international law is a total crock that is designed to empower terrorists and lambast the liberal democracys, don't see Arafat being dragged into the world court for crimes against the Israeli people do you? How about for stealing billions of dollars that should have gone to the Palestinians to improve their lot, or for blocking peace deal after peace deal and not fighting terrorism, for shame, I have no respect for the United Nations, it is a hive of scum and villainy where evil dicatorial regimes are given the oppertunity to bust liberal democracys balls over minor infractions all to distract from their appauling and ongoing abuses.

I suppose that you will remind me that Israel violates international law by posessing or not possessing nuclear weapons well in advance you are wrong, Israel has not signed the nonproliferation treaty and therefore is within her rights to hold or not hold nuclear devices. Israel is one of the few countries in the world that genuinely needs nuclear weapons, surrounded by enemies that seek her complete and utter annihilation, victim of 3 arab wars of conquest and the sole truly democratic country in the entire middle east which must be guarded. Israel doesn't start wars and retains such devices if they exist merely as a tool of ultimate defence and I think that the past 30 years without major wars against Israel are a testament to that little fact.

Something that you like many may not comprehend is that Washington, Ghandhi, Mandela all desired peace and freedom and they were ultimately rewarded for it, I am truly sorry for what we have done to Iraq, I am sorry that we didnt back the '91 uprising of the Shiites because Washington feared a Shiite theocracy, im sorry we gave Helicopter access to the Iraqi Army in the south in the surrender treaty that allowed them to supress the uprising. I am sorry that in '98 when there was a real chance of removing Saddam Clinton backed out and the Iraqi people faced 5 more years of death under corrupt UN sanctions and Baathist terror. We should have listened and supported Iraqi freedom fighters when we had the chance but we didnt and they are all DEAD, 200,000 people lying in mass graves, some shot through the head (a merciful way to die), others blown apart by Saddams Thugs, some buried alive (Is that your peace of the grave that the US violated?). The average Baathist thug has a very strong comprehension of freedom, freedom to slice peoples tounges out with razor blades, slice pregnant women apart and then murder unborn infants to force confessions from anybody that dares defy Iraqi freedom of speech by speaking against Saddam, get a mind Celticfc, these guys do not treasure Iraq's freedom, their comprehension of democracy is to get 100% of the vote by torturing and then killing anybody who doesn't vote for the dictator (just for you I post this link, It is graphic, It is brutal but it will show you excatly what these people got upto before "Bushitler" had a chance to oust them http://www.aei.org/events/eventID.84...ent_detail.asp) I can only hope that you may understand that the removal of that vile dicatorship and the subsequent "winning of the peace" is worth the price.

But wait theres more, you have the second lot of resistance "minutemen" your Islamist element. No middle eastern country would be complete without a full contingent of religious fanatics there to wage Jihad against any invader. These guys are the real deal, verifiable grade A freedom fighters. They seek to establish ONE Islamic power in the world.. that being only one. The entire concept is that modernity is unholy and that the only way for mankind to live a pure and true existence is to revert back to the 7th century, Mohammed's time. See this entire crazy scheme was enshrind in Wahabbism the group that the Saudi Royals made a pact with in exchange to rule the country, Whahab's run the society and use the oil money to spread their wonderful ideals around the world and the Saudi Royals sit at the top and make a fat wad of cash. Now the crux of the issue is that these groups spread their lovely worldview around, namely in the 80's to Afghanistan where their kids went off to fight Jihad against the "Evil Atheists" now the problem that arose from this was that the US supported these Afghan Arabs, they were able to give them weapons (Stinger Missiles work really well against Russian Choppers BTW) and training which basically bogged down the Soviet Union in Afghanistan and ultimately contributed to the end of the cold war and to the freedom of millions of people from that great evil that was communism (what do you know, something that I and Osama bin Laden agree upon ). After the soviets leave Afghanistan turns to shit as major league civil war takes root, from this Chaos the Taliban comes to power, they are not themselves Saudi but they have a very common Wahabist like Deoband Ideology, now the great bit here is, and youll love this, Osama bin Laden and these Taliban types hapily helped eachother, the product being Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan that were used to train a lot of foreigners (who are right now doing their part in Iraq catching coalition bullets) as well as the Taliban troops. After a while bin Laden got tired of small attacks like Embassys and Warships and set his sights on something a little bigger, ressurecting the Bojinka plot of 95 Al Qaeda decided to strike at the US and they setup September 11 - they succeed and if you remember correctly that was a very bad thing. Subsequent of these attacks Bush vows to fight these terrorists on the US's own terms by fighting them in their homes hence Afghanistan, which is not getting much press because as we all know Good news is No news Election preparation and census's are worthless stories (however France refusing to allow NATO support during the elections thankfully gets some coverage), ousting the Taliban regime is good but Al Qaeda operatives spread out around the world. They find a great oppertunity to operate in Iraq as they know a big invasion is coming and they will have a great chance to fight the Great Satan, Saddam invites foreign Jihadists into his country before the invasion to fight the americans and matches them up around the Saddam Fedayeen (remember those guys, the ones that we were promised would turn Baghdad into Stalingrad, were still waiting on that), he also invites in some nice fellows such as Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi a Jordainian terrorist who operates independently of Al Qaeda but will work with them. Right now these guys have made an alliance with the Baathists to create helll, they do this just like the great men you mentioned did, Bombing Police Recruitment Centers, Shelling Schools, Blowing up Children (don't we all just love the sight of burning 8 year olds in the morning ) slicing the heads off innocent people, wait a minute I don't recall the bit where George Washington decided to kill every single man woman or child who supported the British in any way shape or form? Ghandi brandishing a a shiny Schimtar to slice the heads of those who opposed passive resistance does that ring a bell to anybody? Surely we all learnt that Mandella was active in his support of bombing schools I mean the guy would really can't be a true "freedom fighter labelled terrorist" unless he killed his own countrymen and women or to be more precice boys and girls.

So in Iraq as we speak you have resistance forces fighting against the Coalition, the Iraqi Government and among themselves and they have the stated agenda of transforming Iraq into Afghanistan Redux, its back and its better - now with 2 tonnes of enriched uranium at its disposal to give your dirty bombs that glowy goodness . If you support these people over the Iraqi government that was overseen by the UN and when the time comes the elected government then it is outrageous to suggest that you have the intellect and morality of a mule unless of course it was a particuarly stupid and amoral mule.

I presume your reference to the videotaped behaddings being more than meet the eye must be a cunning allusion to the "spooky coincidence" that just when the tape surfaces there was the shocking and worse than death torture at Abu Ghraib beginning, I mean wow, like a CIA blackops division must have kidnapped Berg and then murdered him but all the while leaving cunning hints that don't make any sense if that is what they did that prove that they did it, Russian Accents - well I don't know Arabic or how a Russian would speak Arabic with an accent but Chechnya has produced its fair shair of Freedom Fighters, maybe just maybe they took a vacation from fighting the spetznatz to take pot shots at US troops and engage in some good wholesome "slice his head off, he is American AND he is a filthy Jew" games. Yeah it must all be a coincidence that Bergs execution matched to Daniel Perls one which occured in 2002 in Pakistan because we all know that a Muslim Freedom Fighter would never, ever engage in such disgusting behaviour I mean actually touching a Jew is outlawed by Islamist terrorism, big no no, why do you think they use suicide bombings?

By your speech about the west bank barrier as an "illegal wall" they "just put up" I will assume that you don't know too much about the history of it or the long and drawn out history of Palestinian terrorism. You see when you have your youth recruited by violent organizations to exterminate a certain group of civilians because they are of a certain relgion and you give them bombs to kill other people with it creates problems, blowing up other young people indiscriminately, executing little girls in the back seats of cars and pregnant women who are their mothers all of these little tiny infringements of the victims human rights are what is commonly accepted as terrorism. The non-state actor who perpetrates these actions is generally called a terrorist, not a millitant a terrorist. This term has subsequently been used for people who hijack planes and execute hostages, or fly said planes into skyscrapers where they subsequently explode, people in the plane are incinerated and those in the buildings they have the human right of freedom of movement - 100 floors to the pavement!, There is such a thing as a terrorist whether you believe me or not and men and women with strenght and courage stand up to these terrorists so that other people don't have to, this is currently a highly sucessfull operation where terrorism is fought on every front and it is kept out of downtown western cities but if you let your guard down lives will be lost (Madrid, Bali are two key examples, many of my own countrymen were lost in Bali to the hands on Jemah Islamyia an Al Qaeda linked organization and I can honestly tell you that the nightmare of having a biger bomb going off anywhere in the west because terrorists are emboldened and state sponsered fills me with dread, and not the jokey "ohh im scared" kind). So go ahead and protest against what you see as in illegal war, invent conspiracy theories to describe everything that is wrong with the west that is all designed to opress poor Osama bin Laden, call returning troops baby killers like an injured Iraq vet was at a march in Seattle (do them all if you want to, but expect concequinces for the last one). This is you excercising freedom, all of it and you cannot ever overlook that. Iraqi's have never had a chance for true freedom, the freedom to choose their government, freedom to speak out against their government, to form opinions of their own, to start political movement (provided that they are legitimate, nonviolent ones of course like in any proper liberal democracy, I do not want to hear about the outlawing of Muqtada Sadrs "I kill other clerics but im still a holy man" party) freedom from opression, freedom to worship. It takes time for all these things to take hold, the place is still dangerous but every day forward is a day closer to peace and when it is acheived then Let Freedom Reign throughout Iraq and then throughout the entire world, there would be no more terrorism when all men are free because the "underlying causes" that some seem to want to adress are inherently bound in the sheer number and ferocity of authoritarian regimes out there and matching rhetoric and ideologies.

Or in shorter terms, your argument lacks depth and I myself loath your opinion (not you personally) that these criminals who murder Iraqi's and who hold such virulently authoritarian ideologies deserve the label freedom fighter.
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Old 07-10-2004, 01:49 PM   #12
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Any Comments (Comeon I deserve a second postcount too )
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Old 07-10-2004, 08:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Any Comments (Comeon I deserve a second postcount too )
Ill reply after I have time to read your post.

I do have a mind by the way, no need to get personal.
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Old 07-10-2004, 08:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Any Comments (Comeon I deserve a second postcount too )
My main arguement is the moral highground the US & the Brits take.
I know Sadaam is a complete nut but he was an alright nutjob until he went against the US.
I dont know anythin about the Russians using chemical weapons.
America has used chemical weapons and WMD also.
Wasnt Khomeni put in power by the US after the got rid of the Shah.
I know we are not going to agree anyways so is there any point going on with this.

All Ill say about 9/11 is I dont think a wee guy in a cave could mastermind that plot. Saying nothin else on the matter, big brother might be watchin.

watch out orange alert. be scared, be controlled.
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Old 07-11-2004, 09:06 AM   #15
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very much in line with A_wanderer in this thread
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