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Justin24

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Ok. I am Catholic. Gotta get that out of the way. Now I have not been to church in a long time.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but Christianity, Islam and Judaism were all created by men, UNLESS they were instructed by God to create these religons.

Why do we need to go to church, the mosque or synagogue to pray and worship god? Did jesus not say if you destroy my fathers temple it will be restored in 3 days? (something like that) well he was talking about an inner temple not something made of stone.

So why do we need religon in the first place, when we can worship god in our own way with out having to go to a place of worship?
 
Religion originated out of less-than-altruistic origins. A lot of it was to give authority to royal dynasties by tying those in power to a godly lineage. As such, not only would the ruling class be beyond questioning, it allowed for the justification of corruption and tyranny from the ruling class.

In the case of the Bible, a lot of it was about giving a people without a history...a history. Coming out of 300 years of exile returning to a homeland they never knew, it was comforting to people to know that they had a past.

But on top of it, Zoroastrian purity codes were transformed into "Mosaic Law," which was typical behavior for Cyrus the Great, who believed it was best to subvert local religions rather than having forced conversions. It was a smart tactic for his day, because his empire was relatively peaceful compared to the empires he conquered.

Basically, religion is an early form of government. There was no such thing as "church and state." They were one in the same, and attributing your laws as coming from God was easier than trying to justify an unpopular and/or repressive law on a secular level. Who are you to "question God"?

As such, I laugh at the idea of scriptural inerrancy.

Melon
 
Justin24 said:
So why do we need religon in the first place, when we can worship god in our own way with out having to go to a place of worship?

I wanted to answer this part separately.

The answer is that not all religions demand a place of worship. If you don't believe in hierarchical authority, you're really free to worship as you wish, with or without the church.

Melon
 
My mom is always wondering why I dont go to church anymore. I tell her I do by going to the forest or beach and taking photos.
 
Justin24 said:
My mom is always wondering why I dont go to church anymore. I tell her I do by going to the forest or beach and taking photos.

For Catholicism, in particular, there was a strong emphasis on worship, because of the belief that man cannot communicate with God without an intercessor--the priesthood. As such, their theology inextricably tied God to their authority.

Protestantism did away with that idea, so I'm not sure if Catholicism has changed in that regard since Vatican II. It could be why there's been less emphasis on saints since then, however, since saints were also considered intercessors on behalf of God.

Melon
 
melon said:


For Catholicism, in particular, there was a strong emphasis on worship, because of the belief that man cannot communicate with God without an intercessor--the priesthood. As such, their theology inextricably tied God to their authority.

I admire Catholicism for many, many reasons, but this is probably the main reason, if not the only reason I could never convert to Catholicism. Thankfully, my particular Protestant sect has this thing called General Revelation and it means that God is revealed through creation itself, therefore you aren't obligated to go to church, or even read the Gospel, in order to be a Christian and accept the grace of Christ.

For centuries, people have twisted and tainted this idea, taken it out of context (think TULIP - limited atonement, the doctrine of Election), ignored what John Calvin really meant and the context in which he wrote, but in my head as well as my heart I know this to be true and I've experienced its truth.

A church, to me, serves two main purposes: a community that encourages accountability and a place for spiritual growth. Think of it this way - all humans are born with the potential to do algebra and memorize the locations of each country, but you don't inherently know this unless you go to school. Not knowing these kinds of things doesn't make you less of a person, or not as good of a person, but it's best to exercise our minds and grow intellectually. Likewise, all people have access to God's grace through His creation, you can take it or leave it, but we also have the opportunity to grow spiritually through becoming part of a church community. As for accountability, that's pretty self-explanatory. Most people aren't very good at monitoring themselves and getting help with things they really need help with.
 
Justin24 said:
My mom is always wondering why I dont go to church anymore. I tell her I do by going to the forest or beach and taking photos.

Individual time with God is wonderful. Soaking in the majesty of His creation can be meaningful at many levels.

But God did not call us to live and worship alone. His call is for us to gather together. The benefits to this were highlighted by Livluv above: growth and accountability.

As part of a collective group, you can hear different messages from the same passage of Scripture as God speaks through different people. This kind of growth is invaluable.
 
nbcrusader said:
As part of a collective group, you can hear different messages from the same passage of Scripture as God speaks through different people. This kind of growth is invaluable.

Actually, the idea of worship is the exact opposite: as part of a collective group, any different messages can be henceforth silenced. The church exists to maintain uniformity in thought.

Melon
 
melon said:


Actually, the idea of worship is the exact opposite: as part of a collective group, any different messages can be henceforth silenced. The church exists to maintain uniformity in thought.

Melon

I agree to a point. The collective group serves as check and balance to maintain beliefs articulate in a Statement of Faith.

On the other hand, I've heard many message taken from the same passage of Scripture. Not contradictory messages, but different elements are explored.

For example, looking at the prodigal son from the viewpoint of the father, the older son, the younger son and the cultural norm of the day (which is consistent today).

Sitting alone with you Bible won't give you the depth or texture to passages that comes from hearing from others.
 
I'm very apathetic towards organized religion. It actually exhausts me, particularly the constant pissing match of whose is bigger and better and more true. I've come to a point where I try to live a life of faith and as for not participating in group worship or Scriptural evaluation - well let God sort that out when I leave this place.

And never have I been more at peace, to be honest.
 
WildHoneyAlways said:
What about non-christian faiths? How do they compare when it comes to group worship?

People need other people and are better off with other people. I think non-Christian organized groups can serve the same purpose as Christian churches: growth and accountability. Many other types of groups serve the same purpose: assigned groups in school, book clubs, new mothers clubs, a jogging club, etc. Going to a Christian church and belonging to that group is simply a means of experiencing growth and accountability in that particular part of your life.
 
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:


People need other people and are better off with other people. I think non-Christian organized groups can serve the same purpose as Christian churches

But that completely ignores the notion of reincarnation in Hinduism and Buddhism, where detachment and solitude play an extremely important part in the escape from samsara, the cycles of rebirth.

We have an extremely ethnocentric, Western, Christian idea of what religion is like and what is the best method of worship.

I feel much more comfortable in the Eastern religious contexts.
 
anitram said:


But that completely ignores the notion of reincarnation in Hinduism and Buddhism, where detachment and solitude play an extremely important part in the escape from samsara, the cycles of rebirth.

We have an extremely ethnocentric, Western, Christian idea of what religion is like and what is the best method of worship.

Agreed - although there are also examples of monastic hermits within the Chrstan framework.
 
That's true, and even today there are a number of Catholic monasteries in which the monks live lifestyles very similar to the Buddhist monks of Tibet and so on.
 
anitram said:


But that completely ignores the notion of reincarnation in Hinduism and Buddhism, where detachment and solitude play an extremely important part in the escape from samsara, the cycles of rebirth.


I guess the Christian equivalent of solitude would be meditation, prayer, and reflection of scripture. Like I said before, you don't need to go to church or be a member to be a Christian. I don't think I've been to church in six months! Maybe I'm not making sense? I'm in agreement with Justin than worship can take pretty much any form that's meaningful to you. All I'm saying is that I don't think there's anything harmful with belonging to a community that encourages growth and accountability (I don't think I ever even said "worship"), whether it's a church group, a school group, a sports club, etc. Like I said before, you're not saved/reincarnated/whatever because you do or don't go to church.
 
financeguy said:

But hermits eventually make a choice to become a hermit. Ever met a child that was severely neglected by parents, kept in a cage with no socialization? I met a 17 year old girl who can't talk and has the brain function of a 4 year old because she was completely isolated from human interaction.

I actually admire hermits a lot and often wish I could abandon everything...
 
I do believe that church is very important to the Christian faith. For one thing, much of the new testament emphasises community. I've gone through times of feeling frustrated with organized religion, but I've come to realize that I am a part of the Body of Christ. The New Testament says that as a "christian" I am a member of the body of Christ. If I am a foot...I can't do much without the leg connecting to it......
 
The Church was hugely important during the rise of Christianity, it was important for all Christians to come together and donate $$ to raise funds for bigger, better and more awe inspiring churches. During the days of Paganism, the government had to fund all the Temples! So with the community funding their own places of worship, this idea was much more favourable to the government and now look where christianity is now. I went on a tangent there, i know.
 
I agree, community is important to the Christian experience. Christianity isn't something I feel like I can just do on my own. I need the Church. I need more learned members, like priests and nuns, to teach me. I don't always know where to find the information.
 
I like the idea of skipping the man-made religious stuff. Besides, no mere man (or woman) on this planet can get you closer to god. Like buying straight from the wholesaler, cutting out the middle man.
 
Angela Harlem said:
Like buying straight from the wholesaler, cutting out the middle man.

I like that. :up:

But I would take it one step further and buy straight from the manufacturer and even cut out the wholesaler. :)
 
Angela Harlem said:
I like the idea of skipping the man-made religious stuff. Besides, no mere man (or woman) on this planet can get you closer to god. Like buying straight from the wholesaler, cutting out the middle man.


I agree with you in many respects on this, such as the concept of a required intercessor. Does this, however, extend to how you define God? Is God a only a matter of personal revelation?
 
nbcrusader said:
I agree with you in many respects on this, such as the concept of a required intercessor. Does this, however, extend to how you define God? Is God a only a matter of personal revelation?

How we define God currently is merely someone else's personal revelation. It would explain why God/Allah might as well be two different gods, despite technically being one in the same.

Melon
 
nbcrusader said:



I agree with you in many respects on this, such as the concept of a required intercessor. Does this, however, extend to how you define God? Is God a only a matter of personal revelation?

I guess it's the same question we apply to religions, in a way? Is god, as defined by religion X, a matter of someone else's definition, albeit perhaps one which is thousands of years old? Is a personal revelation not what people of assigned faiths feel, anyway? But these are rhetorical. I suspect you mean by doing this are we then in danger of missing things or more specifically then creating what we think this god should be, based on human comfort and ideals. I've never understood, though, why simply saying 'I reckon there's a god/spirit/creator identity/deity. Beyond that I am not sure, but I reckon god[/insert other here] is there. He created us, all of this, for whatever purpose. I'm here to just do my best. Maybe I'll find out the truth, maybe I wont.' can't wash? It's belief, isn't it? Isn't simple belief enough?
 
WildHoneyAlways said:
What about non-christian faiths? How do they compare when it comes to group worship?
In Hinduism and, especially, Buddhism, group worship is of relatively little importance. Hindus do worship as a group during festivals, and some Hindu temples offer regularly scheduled worship services that are specifically meant for group worship. And of course many Hindu and Buddhist practitioners do voluntarily form or join scripture study groups, yoga or meditation classes, and religiously motivated charity associations. But overall, neither religion places much emphasis on the idea of learning from other (lay) members of the faith, nor on group worship as a good in its own right.

This is just my personal view, but I am inclined to see this difference as related to broader differences between Hinduism, Buddhism and the Abrahamic religions when it comes to the relationship between faith and the individual's role in society. A characteristic feature of the Abrahamic religions is a strong emphasis on social justice, civic responsibility, and the obligation of every believer to apply their faith in a very concrete, clearly-spelled-out way to their dealings with other human beings. Certainly this quality has varied through time, place and sect--Dark Ages Christianity was quite limited on the social responsibility front, for example--and of course, it goes without saying that clashing views of what the "just society" looks like have often created as many problems as they've solved. And true, in contemporary Buddhism there are some very influential voices promoting a "socially engaged" vision of Buddhist practice (Thich Nhat Hanh, the Dalai Lama, Aung San Suu Kyi etc.). Still, from a comparative standpoint it is noteworthy how the Abrahamic faiths put social obligations front and center, while Hinduism and Buddhism have traditionally focused more strongly on individual liberation.
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
I've never understood, though, why simply saying 'I reckon there's a god/spirit/creator identity/deity. Beyond that I am not sure, but I reckon god[/insert other here] is there. He created us, all of this, for whatever purpose. I'm here to just do my best. Maybe I'll find out the truth, maybe I wont.' can't wash? It's belief, isn't it? Isn't simple belief enough?
In many sects of Christianity, at least, this view would be unacceptable because of the doctrine of original sin and its implications for the need of personal faith in Christ to achieve salvation. The Koran states that followers of other faiths will be judged "according to their own book" (though there is much debate about which "books" are included in that decree, with some sects maintaining that monotheism at least is necessary, and that furthermore Muslims who convert will go to hell, etc.). Judaism has never maintained that one must be Jewish in order to be "saved," on the other hand, Jewish notions of the afterlife are sketchy at best, and personal liberation/salvation has never been a predominant concern.
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
People need other people and are better off with other people.
This would more or less be the reason why I personally find religious community indispensible. The idea of faith as a hermetically sealed, purely personal relationship between God and the individual leaves me cold, frankly, and all of my most powerful religious experiences have come about through finding God in others, so to speak. Not that those experiences have all happened in a synagogue or with other Jews; they haven't. But the sharing of a legacy, and a common language for describing religious experience, is a very powerful thing, and an invaluable aid to staying spiritually alert and aware, IMO.

I do also believe, very strongly, that there is a time and place for solitude, and for learning from other religions' perspectives and practices (it was at an ashram where I truly learned to meditate, a gift for which I'll be forever grateful). But I think that too often, people fall into these modes of practice not because "it's just the right time for it" or because it satisfies them profoundly and completely, but rather because for various reasons they feel alienated from, and unwelcome in, the kinds of religious communities they've known in the past. As AliEnvy said in the "heaven is hell" thread,
I think you draw the line between acceptance and submission at the point where you feel no nagging doubt (as in complete peace with the decision of acceptance). That way it's not defeat. If you submit to something larger than yourself and feel defeated, keep fighting.
I think this applies nicely both to deciding whether you're getting what you need from your religious community, and to deciding whether you're getting what you need from belonging to no community at all.
 
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