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Old 09-24-2005, 10:45 PM   #46
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^ whoah!!!!!!!

I just read your post, and it was totally weird. I couldn't tell if you were quoting what I said, or if that was your own thought, or what combinatino.

But I think I got it now, I think......... maybe


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Old 09-25-2005, 04:08 AM   #47
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Sorry, screwup in posting. I was accidentally typing inside your quote and thought I'd gotten rid of it. My answer is below your quote and apparently within it.

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Old 09-25-2005, 06:32 PM   #48
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Originally posted by For Honor

But in regards to the beginning.....
What if someone could feel that same feeling you do, the same joy and peace, etc...... but with something other than Jesus?
Well,... they can, they have, and they will.

Ghandi did not call himself a "Christian", but by God, he's one of the most Christian men in history, in my book... and I refuse to believe that he's burnin' in hell right next to Hitler because he was not a "Christian". At least I certainly hope not. As I heard proclaimed lately in church, God's ways are not our ways, and His justice is not our justice.
But, I'll leave all that up to God... He probably doesn't need my advice.

I can only believe what I have come to know and believe. I know little of most other faiths (or Christian denominations). I have read up on some, but in many ways... I HAVE "found what I am looking for" in this very flawed and troubled religion (or is it the men that run it, the ones that are flawed?). I'm through running. I have staked a claim of land and begun to set up my homestead, if you will. I am home, and I will try to follow, understand and appreciate the rules of this land.
I try to respect other's peaceful religious practices and beliefs because I know it will do me no good in arguing faith with another. Only anger and ego will arise... (same with politics). Do I need to prove to anyone what I choose to believe??? Only if it is important to me that I be believed (by total strangers who I communicate anonymously on a computer screen with) ... and while preaching the good news is one Christian calling, insisting that it be believed is not Christian, in my opinion. Choice, again comes into play.
Jesus could've miraculously freed himself from that cross and changed this world's history forever (although... I'm sure there would've STILL been doubt) but He didn't!... Why!?? Besides He having to fulfill His mission, I believe this curiously frustating God of ours insists on letting us choose. (That's what I LOVED about the God that was portrayed on Joan of Arcadia... in every episode, ultimately, the lesson was about "choice", as well as "responsibility, acceptance, and accountability".)

Pope JP II made it a point to peacefully meet with Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, sunglass-wearing Irish rockstars harboring Messiah complexes, and even Evangelicals!!! (Billy Graham respected him greatly). I loved that about him. He believed what he believed, but he did not close his eyes or his heart to others.

Ideally, I'd like to have the same openness (but I don't).
I admire it though.

Now... what was the question!?

Oh! Well, of course someone can feel joy and peace in their faith...duh!

But, without Jesus, and who He is, and what He stands for, and what He promises, and what He offers... I don't know that it's the same.

"I know nothing but Christ and Him crucified"... I only know the Christian Catholic way, and whether one thinks its wrong or right, closeminded or ignorant... I will 'stay home' and try not to judge others.

"... and I must be an acrobat..."

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Old 09-25-2005, 07:00 PM   #49
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Originally posted by u2granny
My mother is Catholic, my father was Jewish. I am an atheist.
My mom's Episcopalian, my dad's Jewish. I don't know if anyone knows the song by the Irish Rovers called the Orange and the Green, but when I was really little I would dance in my socks with my dad on the hardwood floor to that song. He used to always say that was our mantra, but I never knew what he meant, or how people could be orange and green.

I'm what you'd consider agnostic. My mom is concerned that I don't believe in any sort of god per se, and she thinks it's because I've been traumatised by the horrors of mixed marriages. I don't think that has anything to do with it, but maybe in some way it does. If I'd grown up in a home where both of my parents had always taught me the same thing, maybe I would have believed it without a second thought. But seeing my 2 parents who are both flawed but still good people, it's impossible for me to think one of them is "wrong" and that one of them will burn in hell or something to that extent. It makes no sense to me. I don't think anyone, including Hitler, is in Hell.

I can't even completely convince myself of any higher power whatsoever, even one that doesn't condemn people to flaming pits. I'd like to, but I can't.
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Old 09-25-2005, 11:51 PM   #50
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I grew up in a household where religion didn't play any role whatsoever, and I pretty much remain an agnostic and don't feel the need for belief in any sort of superior being.

That said, for some reason I do feel strangely peaceful when inside a church, especially an Orthodox one. And I do feel moved when, in music or writing or art, people reach out to God - probably more by the pure emotion of their words or voice than anything else.
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Old 09-26-2005, 12:16 AM   #51
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^yes, I share that, being moved be the raw emotion of such things.

That's why I like Pride (in the name of love). I'm not a huge churchgoer, but the principles, and the emotion in Bono's voice, singing about his hero, that will always stay with me. That's why it's my favorite song.

So I can still appreciate things like that, too. But I suppose my ... judgements are secular, or at least, coming from within myself, as to what is 'right' or 'wrong'

I always enjoy the choir at our church, and especially so at holiday time. I like all festivals, it's something abuot them...... makes me smile
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Old 09-26-2005, 01:06 AM   #52
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I've decided to expand on my original contribution...

I was once a fairly devout Catholic, but fate interceded and now I find the entire Catholic Church to be incredibly silly. Even then, however, it took a long time for me to shed their influence on me. I hated John Paul II for the bigotry he spouted behind the scenes, while looking like the master statesman on the outside. I hate duplicitious people. But I could never really shed the respect for him that I was taught to have growing up. And for years, all I ever wanted was for him to admit that his bigotry was wrong. I would have been the first to accept a sincere apology, but I also know that the Catholic Church's apologies are always 500 years too late. Then he died as defiantly duplicitous as ever, and I've felt no need to respect his current successor. He will always be the uber-bigoted "Cardinal Ratzinger" to me.

I doubt I'll ever shed the "Catholic mythology" from my life. A Catholic Bible will probably be the only complete Bible in my eyes (and their footnotes are full of interesting scholarly tidbits). I still find things like angels and saints to be interesting, even if I know that a lot of the angels/demons were originally Semitic/Zoroastrian deities and that a lot of the "saints" were real bastards during their lifetime. And there's nothing like an ornate cathedral to really inspire awe.

These days, I refuse to apply a label to what I believe. I'm not an atheist. Part of me refuses to become one, because then my enemies will have won. Instead, I have been continuing on my path to understand the true nature of God, which I feel that I slowly unravel through scholarship, contemplation, meditation, and life experience. I hope someday to uncover enough to write a book on the subject.

I doubt I'll ever feel comfortable in an organized religion again. It has become a very personal thing for me, and "groupthink" just seems all too stifling for me.

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Old 09-26-2005, 12:17 PM   #53
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by trash con

Hmmm.. don't know how to feel about this.
It never bothered me that Adam was agnostic(?), because it was obvious that he respected the beliefs of his mates.

Is this such a terrible thing to atheists out there though??

It never bothered me either..But it must have bothered the other guys, I suppose I do not think it is terrible at all to be atheist, some of my very close friends are atheist and I respect and understand there veiws.

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