Religious? Spiritual? God? Athiest? WHY?

[bcrt2000]

agnostic

I rarely associate U2 with being "religious". There is an atheist in the band after all.
And I do like what the lyrics bring to the table, it has always seemed to me to be done in a 'searching' kind of way, not 'I know what it is, this is the truth' etc which would just make me want to throttle them.

And if nothing else, they got me through vacation bible school when I was a kid
I could recite all kinds of bible verses thanks to them

well... bono recites verses from the bible from time to time (see Boston DVD, Bad -> Streets), and talks about god, asks for god's help, praises god (last night on earth mexico popmart intro, still haven't found what i'm looking for, all because of you, wake up dead man, if god would send his angels, yahweh, Miracle Drug (God I need your help tonight!), One Step Closer (for Bono's father to know if there is a higher being), Until the End of the World (story of Jesus & Judas))

theres also other songs that indirectly are about god/spirituality... Beautiful Day comes to mind (singing the praises of creation), Kite (perhaps about meeting again in the afterlife?), Staring at the Sun (again talking about things similar to BD, he mentions God directly in one verse, but the song is not directly about God), although that is much more up to interpretation than the initial set of songs that i named

if anyone listened to the Elevation Rehearsals, if i'm not mistaken, they had a pastor/priest bless the tour.

 

[Carmelu2fan]

Fuck, he didn't, did he? Another atheist lost to us all.

Yes Adam is a believer now.Bono must have wore him down

 

[trash con]

Yes Adam is a believer now.Bono must have wore him down

Hmmm.. don't know how to feel about this.
It never bothered me that Adam was agnostic(?), because it was obvious that he respected the beliefs of his mates.

Is this such a terrible thing to atheists out there though??

What a short memory I do have though, for there was a time in my life, not more than 8 years ago that I would have had blue eyed girl's reaction. I was not entirely atheist (in that "atheism" is in deed a belief system and so a "religion" of sorts) but more of a "Screw it all!- I don't wanna even think of a God because I don't feel Him and I'm as mad as hell" sort of an agnostic.
... I was not a happy camper.

as the man in shades and funny big shoes sings:

"Take this heart
Take this heart
Take this heart
And make it break"

 

[For Honor]

Curious...
Was anyone here a fan of the TV show, "Joan of Arcadia"??
I was a huge fan and I was so heartbroken when it was cancelled (Europe is getting it first run right now).

I love the way God was portrayed. And its weekly lessons and themes were very deep.
It was produced by Barbara Hall, a very talented and spiritual woman (and a practicing Catholic, as I) and I gained great respect for her talent, spirituality and sense of humor.

Anyone? anyone??
Does the term, "Little Girl God" mean anything to anyone out there?
(btw, each week they used wwwwwwwonderful music to add to the plot's theme, and of course, U2's "Sometimes You Cant Make It On Your Own" was used.)

Joan... was an interesting show

My stepmother, a devout Catholic, loved it dearly.

I can respect it. Sometimes it was ..... sort of...... typical, in my own vision of it. Sometimes it was frustrating - almost in a way that the main character was frustrated by how god came to her. But for me, it was more.... "well, (to the main character), shouldn't you expect things to go that way by now?"

Anyway, i don't mean to be negative about it.


It was, though, one of the few shows that I felt promoted a lot of good advice and values, and had some awesome secular things going for it, about truth, and moving on, etc.

I would have liked it to have kept going myself.

 

[For Honor]

What a short memory I do have though, for there was a time in my life, not more than 8 years ago that I would have had blue eyed girl's reaction. I was not entirely atheist (in that "atheism" is in deed a belief system and so a "religion" of sorts) but more of a "Screw it all!- I don't wanna even think of a God because I don't feel Him and I'm as mad as hell" sort of an agnostic.
... I was not a happy camper.

as the man in shades and funny

This made me think


about myself, all be it a conceited thought.


I really..... don't have any malice towards god.
I don't know what I think about him, but at the same time... well, like I said before, spirituality is something I don't know how to describe, for myself, and it's always interesting when it comes up in conversation.


I respect god, but.... I don't neccesarily "believe" in a religion, or am a Christian, etc.




tangent -


one thing I always was disturbed by was the creation, and perhaps over production of "good and evil". I mean, I recently saw a Johnny Depp film "From Hell", about Jack the Ripper.

ANd to see a religion so twisted and such, it's kind of sickening. THings like that really make me think that mankind uses religion as an excuse sometimes. Almost like a pojection.

Sometimes it's like...... refusing to take responsiblity for your actions. Something evil doesn't manipulate you... it's your own mind/heart.

I go back to one of my most favorite movies - "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon"...

"The real evil resides within the human heart"

I agree....

 

[For Honor]

I remember a talk with my dad when I was 12 or 13, I was a Christian in the literal sense, beleived the whole religious line of thinking and he asked me if I truly thought that a billion Chinese folks were going to burn in hell for only following traditions of their parents, the same thing we do in Western countries. It's just a silly idea.

smashingly excellent point.


That was one thing that really, really got to me, when I was first thinking about my definition of my spirituatlity. Oddly enough, I've become a big fan of Oriental culture, but perhaps that is really an unrelated thing.


But your point there, that is what turned my off from Christiatnity at first.... What if, say, Jesus was "born" in the heart of Japan? Or Vietnam?


And really.......
if that were the case
should there be a difference at all?

I don't think so

 

[For Honor]

This is a great thread Hal!! For Honor you words are just a inspiring as U2 lyrics

Wow, that is flattering :blush:

you are too kind! shh: but thankyou, just the same )


And yes, really good thread, Halucination

 

[For Honor]

Re: Re: Re: Religious? Spiritual? God? Athiest? WHY?

Oh wow I love this topic! Haha...let's see...(sorry if the quotes turned out wrong)

I believe in God.
I pray often, not really in front of other people because I'm shy but I do sometimes.



Interesting...I never thought of God that way...



I'd read that if you posted it.



Same here.




Great minds think alike.




Aw...



Hehe..

.............

I guess for me I'm still trying to figure everything out. I've tried different religions/denominations and I have my own take on things. Like Bono said (however I may say this wrong) religion gets in the way of God. I don't think it really matters what you denomination or whatever you are as long as you love God and have a relationship with him. But that's just me....

Interesting....


and to "I'd read that if you posted it."


well, I'll let you know if I ever do write it all out. I've been thinking about if for a time.... But I would never know what to address it as. It would be complex yet simple, I think. Eh, I better not say anymore, because then I'll feel odd about not doing it!

 

[BonosSaint]

Oh, this topic. I try to stay away from it and I'm always drawn back into it. I find it such a frustrating, troubling and fascinating issue. There is always the desire to believe our lives are more than we have experienced them to be. There is that tenacious human desire for the hope that faith can provide.

Sometimes I am intrigued by people who live their faith, not by the rules (that's easy, sort of. It doesn't take a whole lot of thought--it's laid out there for you), but by the spirit. I rarely pay attention when one preaches, because I don't believe it if I cannot see it in some one's day to day life. So if I don't see someone's day to day or I see constant interpersonal behavior that gives lies to their words, I don't pay much attention. "By their fruits, you will know them..." and all that. I think the words lack credibility when your moral authority does. I make an exception in listening in forums like this as there is no way I am ever going to know posters' day to day lives. So I deliberately suspend disbelief.

I have yet to find a church in which I am comfortable. Personally, I don't believe in rituals or public displays of faith or worship (except music, a lot of strong religious music is kickass--as opposed to some of the tepid Christian rock. I like the traditional stuff) I'm a little uncomfortable with the "Peace be with you." thing, although I am sure it is something nice for a lot of people. I know when I say the words, they are empty and I expect it is the same for at least a couple of other people. I grew up in a church where I was great friends with a couple of the ministers.
I always found it ironic that I could discuss faith and doubt and anger and disbelief with ministers better than the congregation as a whole. Maybe it is not so ironic. (PS, in all honesty, I'm not much of a belonger, so you could probably find me the perfect church and I wouldn't stay long)

I do not know what drives people to churches. I know for some, it is a comfort to feel everything has an answer. On a whole, "ologies"don't like questions; they like answers. Sometimes I facetiously (and not so facetiously) think of starting a church that understood the ying-yangof doubt and faith, anger and joy, acceptance and betrayel. I would probably call it the Church of St. Judas. I guess it would have a limited membership. I have given the easy answers. I don't believe in them anymore. Easy answers get you off scotfree. You have no more responsibility than to let those glib words slide off your tongue. I would demand more of myself and of my mythical congregation.

I do not know what impels some humans to truly act beyond their own interests. I have not yet determined that that "what" is God, but I believe it is faith of some kind.

 

[najeena]

I am a daughter of science, so to speak, so I don't consider myself religious. I have respect for all those who do, even the nice Mormons who come to our house in the woods to convert me. Though I sometimes wish for the comfort that such a belief would bring, there's something in me that could never believe in the supernatural. I find miracles enough just looking at all that surrounds us.

 

[trash con]

I do not know what drives people to churches. I know for some, it is a comfort to feel everything has an answer. On a whole, "ologies"don't like questions; they like answers. Sometimes I facetiously (and not so facetiously) think of starting a church that understood the ying-yangof doubt and faith, anger and joy, acceptance and betrayel. I would probably call it the Church of St. Judas. I do not know what impels some humans to truly act beyond their own interests. I have not yet determined that that "what" is God, but I believe it is faith of some kind.

Arrrgggggh!
Sometimes... sometimes I wish I could make people feel what I feel... Know what I know. See the world and life as I have seen it, as I have lived it, as I have gone through hell (my own hell) and have come back...

I wish I could somehow magically instantly share in the joy, peace, acceptance, wonder, mystery (and yes, frustration), hope... HOPE and faith of my belief... Of my assurance in God, in Jesus Christ... In life having some meaning.... THE meaning.

BUT... I can't, and perhaps I SHOULDN'T because perhaps what I am wishing for is something of ego and pride. Something that makes ME feel better (in that, if YOU feel just as I do, then I am more confident in my beliefs and I am validated).

We all have to live our lives, experience our experiences, stumble and fall, and hopefully get up again, and find answers, if answers are in fact what you choose to find.

I wouldn't make a good Mormon or Jehovah's Witness is think.

("Preach the Gospel at all times,... when necessary, use words."
- St. Francis of Assisi. I love that quote, yet I can't seem to give in to it)

Okay... It has been said that a Good Church should raise MORe questions than have answers.
So, I don't totally agree with your accessment on "ologies" only having answers.
One of the "truthes" of Catholicism, as all other faiths I assume, is that there are in fact Mysteries that we cannot answer or should we... and we have to believe and accept... on faith.
(faith... a dirty word???)

What drives people to church?... most times, its the " I have to go or I will burn in hell" reason. It used to be for me.
It isnt any longer.

DOH!... I have to go! I'm having dinner with a friend (my ex, no less)... and she will KILL me if I am late... again (But she won't...cos she's a good Catholic!

More on this later... plus more on my Joan of Arcadia!

Peace.

 

[For Honor]

I'm a little uncomfortable with the "Peace be with you." thing, although I am sure it is something nice for a lot of people. I know when I say the words, they are empty and I expect it is the same for at least a couple of other people.

Interesting..... that is, actually.....
the one thing I can say sincerely when I go to church. Mostly, because I think me saying "peace be with you" is kind of a secular thing, though in a church few things are secular, but, what I mean is... it seemed more genuine than most other things I did or said in a church. More real. More sincere. But that's just me.

I do not know what drives people to churches. I know for some, it is a comfort to feel everything has an answer. On a whole, "ologies"don't like questions; they like answers. Sometimes I facetiously (and not so facetiously) think of starting a church that understood the ying-yangof doubt and faith, anger and joy, acceptance and betrayel. I would probably call it the Church of St. Judas. I guess it would have a limited membership. I have given the easy answers. I don't believe in them anymore. Easy answers get you off scotfree. You have no more responsibility than to let those glib words slide off your tongue. I would demand more of myself and of my mythical congregation.

I believe I know what you mean... at least a little bit.
Responsibility is a major thing that I contemplate, and I don't like easy answers myself...........

I do not know what impels some humans to truly act beyond their own interests. I have not yet determined that that "what" is God, but I believe it is faith of some kind.

I was thinking about that the other day......


I do things that are genuinely "nice", so to say.... but I try to figure out what my pay off is. I know, my stepmother.... she likes to do nice things for peoplle, but it's sort of a guilt trip for her, at least sometimes. Sometimes she comes home from work and feels like she has to make a cake or do something for her coworkers, and it just strikes me sometimes. She is too nice for her own good, and needs to be looked out for... but she's getting better.

However, there are times when she is secularly, indifferently, and wholesomely doing something just to be nice to someone. Some people like to make other people happy, so I guess there is a personal benefit in getting a positive reaction out of someone.



To take your statement further......
I wonder... why people do strive for peace, pleasant/calm states of mind...?
Realistically, is it just because it is a more plesant emotional feeling? Like how sleep is restful when you grow weary?


The more I see things now, the more I just see, like electronics, two charges - positve and negative. It's all energy, but really, it's just divided between positive and negative.... Too much sleep , too much peace causes idleness and still generates unhappiness. Too much war, action, violence, causes inner strife, and has one craving for peace.


I suppose...... this is why I feel people are too shallow sometimes. not to be arrogant, but, there must be others who see things this way, right? Or at least, a little?
I only ask... slightly out of fear, because I don't react to things the way most people do, and that makes me wonder a lot...


Anyhow...
anyhow...


I will always be on the side of "peace" or "good" or whatever. Just because that is the more productive of the two - culture, science can develop during peace time. Prosperity, develpoment. I think peace may allow us to evolve, or become something greater than ourselves.


Than just....................... "human" in the simplistic, minute form.

But we are still fighting each other, so I guess it might take a long, long time.

If I were to write a philosophy, or religion our or something, I would promote that the most. But at the same time.... you can't deny the reality around you. Or more so, you can't deny reality...

 

[For Honor]

Arrrgggggh!
Sometimes... sometimes I wish I could make people feel what I feel... Know what I know. See the world and life as I have seen it, as I have lived it, as I have gone through hell (my own hell) and have come back...

I wish I could somehow magically instantly share in the joy, peace, acceptance, wonder, mystery (and yes, frustration), hope... HOPE and faith of my belief... Of my assurance in God, in Jesus Christ... In life having some meaning.... THE meaning.

BUT... I can't, and perhaps I SHOULDN'T because perhaps what I am wishing for is something of ego and pride. Something that makes ME feel better (in that, if YOU feel just as I do, then I am more confident in my beliefs and I am validated).

We all have to live our lives, experience our experiences, stumble and fall, and hopefully get up again, and find answers, if answers are in fact what you choose to find.

I know where you are coming from. I especially like how you ended it.


But in regards to the beginning.....
What if someone could feel that same feeling you do, the same joy and peace, etc...... but with something other than Jesus?

 

[BonosSaint]

Okay... It has been said that a Good Church should raise MORe questions than have answers.
So, I don't totally agree with your accessment on "ologies" only having answers.
One of the "truthes" of Catholicism, as all other faiths I assume, is that there are in fact Mysteries that we cannot answer or should we... and we have to believe and accept... on faith.
(faith... a dirty word?

Peace.

Oh, I didn't say "ologies" only have answers, just that they like answers better than questions. I wasn't raised Catholic, so I don't know about the Mysteries. I'm assuming transubstantiation is included in that. If I'm correct on how you are defining the Mysteries, I never had many questions or much interest in the supernatural (in the broadest definition) aspect of religion. However, your paragraph is kind of making my point. The question is stifled. You just have to have faith and if you have doubts about it, that's your problem. That is one of the "ology" answers I mean.

 

[BonosSaint]

Responsibility is a major thing that I contemplate, and I don't like easy answers myself...........


I was thinking about that the other day......


I do things that are genuinely "nice", so to say.... but I try to figure out what my pay off is. I know, my stepmother.... she likes to do nice things for peoplle, but it's sort of a guilt trip for her, at least sometimes. Sometimes she comes home from work and feels like she has to make a cake or do something for her coworkers, and it just strikes me sometimes. She is too nice for her own good, and needs to be looked out for... but she's getting better.

However, there are times when she is secularly, indifferently, and wholesomely doing something just to be nice to someone. Some people like to make other people happy, so I guess there is a personal benefit in getting a positive reaction out of someone.



To take your statement further......
I wonder... why people do strive for peace, pleasant/calm states of mind...?
Realistically, is it just because it is a more plesant emotional feeling? Like how sleep is restful when you grow weary?

(Okay, that's an interesting point. People act beyond their self interest because it really is in their self-interest. Actually, that's a great point. The selfishness of unselfishness. That makes sense to me.)

If I were to write a philosophy, or religion our or something, I would promote that the most. But at the same time.... you can't deny the reality around you. Or more so, you can't deny reality...

Okay, that's an interesting point. People act beyond their self interest because it really is in their self-interest. Actually, that's a great point. The selfishness of unselfishness. That makes sense to me.

 

[For Honor]

^ whoah!!!!!!!

I just read your post, and it was totally weird. I couldn't tell if you were quoting what I said, or if that was your own thought, or what combinatino.

But I think I got it now, I think......... maybe

 

[BonosSaint]

Sorry, screwup in posting. I was accidentally typing inside your quote and thought I'd gotten rid of it. My answer is below your quote and apparently within it.

 

[trash con]

But in regards to the beginning.....
What if someone could feel that same feeling you do, the same joy and peace, etc...... but with something other than Jesus?

Well,... they can, they have, and they will.

Ghandi did not call himself a "Christian", but by God, he's one of the most Christian men in history, in my book... and I refuse to believe that he's burnin' in hell right next to Hitler because he was not a "Christian". At least I certainly hope not. As I heard proclaimed lately in church, God's ways are not our ways, and His justice is not our justice.
But, I'll leave all that up to God... He probably doesn't need my advice.

I can only believe what I have come to know and believe. I know little of most other faiths (or Christian denominations). I have read up on some, but in many ways... I HAVE "found what I am looking for" in this very flawed and troubled religion (or is it the men that run it, the ones that are flawed?). I'm through running. I have staked a claim of land and begun to set up my homestead, if you will. I am home, and I will try to follow, understand and appreciate the rules of this land.
I try to respect other's peaceful religious practices and beliefs because I know it will do me no good in arguing faith with another. Only anger and ego will arise... (same with politics). Do I need to prove to anyone what I choose to believe??? Only if it is important to me that I be believed (by total strangers who I communicate anonymously on a computer screen with) ... and while preaching the good news is one Christian calling, insisting that it be believed is not Christian, in my opinion. Choice, again comes into play.
Jesus could've miraculously freed himself from that cross and changed this world's history forever (although... I'm sure there would've STILL been doubt) but He didn't!... Why!?? Besides He having to fulfill His mission, I believe this curiously frustating God of ours insists on letting us choose. (That's what I LOVED about the God that was portrayed on Joan of Arcadia... in every episode, ultimately, the lesson was about "choice", as well as "responsibility, acceptance, and accountability".)

Pope JP II made it a point to peacefully meet with Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, sunglass-wearing Irish rockstars harboring Messiah complexes, and even Evangelicals!!! (Billy Graham respected him greatly). I loved that about him. He believed what he believed, but he did not close his eyes or his heart to others.

Ideally, I'd like to have the same openness (but I don't).
I admire it though.

Now... what was the question!?

Oh! Well, of course someone can feel joy and peace in their faith...duh!

But, without Jesus, and who He is, and what He stands for, and what He promises, and what He offers... I don't know that it's the same.

"I know nothing but Christ and Him crucified"... I only know the Christian Catholic way, and whether one thinks its wrong or right, closeminded or ignorant... I will 'stay home' and try not to judge others.

"... and I must be an acrobat..."


Peace.

 

[VertigoGal]

My mother is Catholic, my father was Jewish. I am an atheist.

My mom's Episcopalian, my dad's Jewish. I don't know if anyone knows the song by the Irish Rovers called the Orange and the Green, but when I was really little I would dance in my socks with my dad on the hardwood floor to that song. He used to always say that was our mantra, but I never knew what he meant, or how people could be orange and green.

I'm what you'd consider agnostic. My mom is concerned that I don't believe in any sort of god per se, and she thinks it's because I've been traumatised by the horrors of mixed marriages. I don't think that has anything to do with it, but maybe in some way it does. If I'd grown up in a home where both of my parents had always taught me the same thing, maybe I would have believed it without a second thought. But seeing my 2 parents who are both flawed but still good people, it's impossible for me to think one of them is "wrong" and that one of them will burn in hell or something to that extent. It makes no sense to me. I don't think anyone, including Hitler, is in Hell.

I can't even completely convince myself of any higher power whatsoever, even one that doesn't condemn people to flaming pits. I'd like to, but I can't.

 

[Saracene]

I grew up in a household where religion didn't play any role whatsoever, and I pretty much remain an agnostic and don't feel the need for belief in any sort of superior being.

That said, for some reason I do feel strangely peaceful when inside a church, especially an Orthodox one. And I do feel moved when, in music or writing or art, people reach out to God - probably more by the pure emotion of their words or voice than anything else.

 

[For Honor]

^yes, I share that, being moved be the raw emotion of such things.


That's why I like Pride (in the name of love). I'm not a huge churchgoer, but the principles, and the emotion in Bono's voice, singing about his hero, that will always stay with me. That's why it's my favorite song.

So I can still appreciate things like that, too. But I suppose my ... judgements are secular, or at least, coming from within myself, as to what is 'right' or 'wrong'


I always enjoy the choir at our church, and especially so at holiday time. I like all festivals, it's something abuot them...... makes me smile

 

[melon]

I've decided to expand on my original contribution...

I was once a fairly devout Catholic, but fate interceded and now I find the entire Catholic Church to be incredibly silly. Even then, however, it took a long time for me to shed their influence on me. I hated John Paul II for the bigotry he spouted behind the scenes, while looking like the master statesman on the outside. I hate duplicitious people. But I could never really shed the respect for him that I was taught to have growing up. And for years, all I ever wanted was for him to admit that his bigotry was wrong. I would have been the first to accept a sincere apology, but I also know that the Catholic Church's apologies are always 500 years too late. Then he died as defiantly duplicitous as ever, and I've felt no need to respect his current successor. He will always be the uber-bigoted "Cardinal Ratzinger" to me.

I doubt I'll ever shed the "Catholic mythology" from my life. A Catholic Bible will probably be the only complete Bible in my eyes (and their footnotes are full of interesting scholarly tidbits). I still find things like angels and saints to be interesting, even if I know that a lot of the angels/demons were originally Semitic/Zoroastrian deities and that a lot of the "saints" were real bastards during their lifetime. And there's nothing like an ornate cathedral to really inspire awe.

These days, I refuse to apply a label to what I believe. I'm not an atheist. Part of me refuses to become one, because then my enemies will have won. Instead, I have been continuing on my path to understand the true nature of God, which I feel that I slowly unravel through scholarship, contemplation, meditation, and life experience. I hope someday to uncover enough to write a book on the subject.

I doubt I'll ever feel comfortable in an organized religion again. It has become a very personal thing for me, and "groupthink" just seems all too stifling for me.

Melon

 

[Carmelu2fan]

Hmmm.. don't know how to feel about this.
It never bothered me that Adam was agnostic(?), because it was obvious that he respected the beliefs of his mates.

Is this such a terrible thing to atheists out there though??

It never bothered me either..But it must have bothered the other guys, I suppose I do not think it is terrible at all to be atheist, some of my very close friends are atheist and I respect and understand there veiws.