Religious sounding songs, for non religious people...

[Earnie Shavers]

I didn't think that Conservative Christians were the entire scope of Christians.

I actually think that they're virtual opposites, but thats another thread....

 

[80sU2isBest]

I didn't think that Conservative Christians were the entire scope of Christians. Perhaps this person just had/has issues with one segment of the religion.

I didn't say they were. You are reading something between the lines that just wasn't there.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I actually think that they're virtual opposites, but thats another thread....

I've never insulted liberal Christians, but you just had to throw that in. But I don't mind; you are helping to prove my point.

But since you said it, go ahead and tell me; what makes you think that conservtive Christians are the "opposite" of Christians? This should be very interesting.

 

[beli]

No, that's not right. If God exists, you don't need him because he "works for me". You need him because he is God.

Okay, I kinda agree with you here. Its still not applicable to me but I can see how this can have meaning to you.

 

[indra]

I didn't say they were. You are reading something between the lines that just wasn't there.

I guess I'm allowed since you do it also, right?

Actually in many of your posts within this very thread you make comments about what Christians say or believe -- meaning, or at least seeming to mean, that you believe you are speaking for all Christians. So what you posted earlier in this thread coloured (for me at least) the post of your's that I commented on. And yeah I do believe you think you speak for all "true" Christians sometimes.

 

[deep]

i thought you said you gave up the god shaped hole for the time being

But since you said it, go ahead and tell me; what makes you think that conservtive Christians are the "opposite" of Christians? This should be very interesting.

They do the opposite of what Jesus of Nazareth did

They are more the equivalent of The Church that Jesus had little use for

The self-righteous stone throwers, they were so religious that they had no time for true charity and compassion.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I guess I'm allowed since you do it also, right?

What's with the vague alluding? To what are you referring?

Actually in many of your posts within this very thread you make comments about what Christians say or believe -- meaning, or at least seeming to mean, that you believe you are speaking for all Christians. So what you posted earlier in this thread coloured (for me at least) the post of your's that I commented on. And yeah I do believe you think you speak for all "true" Christians sometimes.

I'm not gonna be politically correct and say "well I believe that everyone needs God, but I don't speak for all Christians" because that statment just wouldn't be true. All Christians believe that everyone needs God. There are no ifs, ands and buts about it. A Christian is someone who believes in and follows Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, right? And if you believe in Christ, you believe that what he says is true. Christ himself said that:

(1) He and the Father are one and the same.
(2) He is the only way to God
(3) He is the only way to eternal life

Therefore, according to Christ, everyone needs him (Christ the Son/God).

 

[80sU2isBest]

Re: i thought you said you gave up the god shaped hole for the time being

They do the opposite of what Jesus of Nazareth did

Everyone who has sinned even once does the opposite of what Jesus did.

Beyond that, most of the conservative Christians I know jsut want to do what's right, led by the spirit of Christ within them.

They are more the equivalent of The Church that Jesus had little use for

The self-righteous stone throwers, they were so religious that they had no time for true charity and compassion.

Really? You know that about conservative Christians? Or do you know that just about the loud and proud who make the news?

You are making a rash generalization. Stereotypes aren't good; you know that.

 

[indra]

What's with the vague alluding? To what are you referring?



I'm not gonna be politically correct and say "well I believe that everyone needs God, but I don't speak for all Christians" because that statment just wouldn't be true. All Christians believe that everyone needs God. There are no ifs, ands and buts about it. A Christian is someone who believes in and follows Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, right? And if you believe in Christ, you believe that what he says is true. Christ himself said that:

(1) He and the Father are one and the same.
(2) He is the only way to God
(3) He is the only way to eternal life

Therefore, according to Christ, everyone needs him (Christ the Son/God).

sigh. we just don't agree on anything. let's just agree to ignore each other.

i imagine i'm just a heathen to you, and i know you are a blowhard to me, so it's just so much better to realise that what you believe and what i believe are never going to mesh at all. your god will never be my god -- even if i decide i need a god, it won't be the one you worship. i also realise that you will never be capable of seeing things from my view either.

but quite frankly, from what you post, you are the type of christian that makes me want to puke. you are entirely too sure you are absolutely correct.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

I've never insulted liberal Christians, but you just had to throw that in. But I don't mind; you are helping to prove my point.

But since you said it, go ahead and tell me; what makes you think that conservtive Christians are the "opposite" of Christians? This should be very interesting.

I'm not going to get drawn on the 'Conservative Christian' thing because I'd bet you and I would have very different definitions of what that is.

 

[Palace_Hero]

BUUlket teh bULE SKI!~!!!!!!
1e watfhd
DXf'
z

 

[Palace_Hero]

I just put El Salvador through my keyboard.

 

[80sU2isBest]

sigh. we just don't agree on anything. let's just agree to ignore each other.

i imagine i'm just a heathen to you, and i know you are a blowhard to me, so it's just so much better to realise that what you believe and what i believe are never going to mesh at all. your god will never be my god -- even if i decide i need a god, it won't be the one you worship. i also realise that you will never be capable of seeing things from my view either.

but quite frankly, from what you post, you are the type of christian that makes me want to puke. you are entirely too sure you are absolutely correct.

Yes, absolutely, in my heart, I'm as sure as a man can be that my religious beliefs are correct. Why would anyone invest their entire life in something he's not sure about in his heart?

Why does it bother you that someone is sure about his beliefs? If I was sure there was no God, I'd bet that wouldn't bother you in the least.

Can you address my point instead of insulting me? Do you treat all people with whom you disagree with that level of contempt or just Christians who are "sure of the beliefs"?

 

[80sU2isBest]

I'm not going to get drawn on the 'Conservative Christian' thing because I'd bet you and I would have very different definitions of what that is.

Probably so. My definition is a purely theological definition and has nothing to do with politics.

But from now on, please don't do "hit and runs" like this, throwing out one-liner insults and accusations and then refusing to back them up with an explanation.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I just put El Salvador through my keyboard.

That was pretty good.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Okay, I kinda agree with you here. Its still not applicable to me but I can see how this can have meaning to you.

Thanks

 

[Irvine511]

i think we can all agree that Jesus would have opposed the Democrats using the filibuster.



and, no, this of course isn't all Christians, not even all conservative evangelical protestant Christians, but i do think that POLITICAL christians -- those who evoke theology as a guide for legislation -- do believe at least some of the following of a post i came across whilst tripping through some blogs:



Okay Jonah, I liked your article “What is a conservative?” from May 11th. However, I an evangelical Christian, disagree with you that Jesus doesn’t have any useful advice about how to fix Social Security. God, through the Bible, has given us all the knowledge we need to deal with all life’s issues social, political, etc. Let me give you a few quotes from the Bible (I prefer the New American Standard translation, but use whichever you prefer) for political topics: Representative Government: Genesis 18:13-27
Employer rights and free market economy: Matthew 20:1-15

Welfare for those who won’t work: 2 Thessalonians 3:6-13

Social Security/Welfare/Medicaid for those who can’t help themselves: Leviticus 19:9-10, Leviticus 23:22, James 2:15-16, I John 3:17-18, see also the book of Ruth… bottom line; it’s the job of the church, not government

Property ownership: Leviticus 25:23-31

Taxes: 2 Kings 23:35, 2 Chronicles 24:6, 2 Chronicles 24:9, 2 Chronicles 24:10, Matthew 22:17, 21, Mark 12:14,17, Luke 20:22,25

Gay Marriage: Genesis 2:20-24, I Corinthians 6:9

Death Penalty: Genesis 9:5-6

War: Ecclesiastes 3:3,7,8

Give me a topic, any topic, and I bet you that the Bible addresses it somewhere with God’s wisdom on how to handle it.

http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/05_05_08_corner-archive.asp#062854

 

[coemgen]

Wait a minute, did that really come from you Irvine? Doesn't sound like you.

 

[Irvine511]

no, i was cutting and pasting from a blog entry.

see link below.

(goodness, of course not me!)

(although i have an evil twin who somtimes assumes my identity ... his name is Irvine512, and he's *gasp* straight!)

 

[coemgen]

I skipped over the sentance where you explained where you got the info.
Although I'd love to see you into Scripture that much, it kind of freaked me out. I thought it was a case of identity theft or a case of the body snatchers or something.

 

[BonosSaint]

I think you would be surprised how much agnostics do get into the Scriptures. It is an incredible book filled with beautiful poetry, wonderful drama, sexshifty and incredible, often radical, philosophy.

I want to extend some sympathy to Christians. You are getting precious little of it on this board. It's a tough time to be a Christian. While for the first time in a long time, you are getting the political attention the Left has not given you, you are also being tarred with how the far right is using Christianity as a political tool (in our perception). They are throwing down the gauntlet as "us against them" which just begs for a fight. It sets a definition for Christianity that many (including other Christians cannot accept. I think your religion has been hijacked and I think it is a shame. It is getting horrendous PR.

It is hard to accept the message when you see so many things being done in the name of Christ. What I once saw as a beautiful religion has in many ways degenerated into something ugly and too many Christians are being painted with that brush.

I think the value of Christians has been something that has been ignored by the Left for too long a time. Some of the work they do is incredible. But at best, the Left has considered them a quaint, naive little people, which is far from the truth. They were ripe for anyone who was going to give them attention and respect. The Left (generalizing here again) invalidated them; the Right gave them their validation back.

I am not a practicing Christian, but it is the religion I grew up with,
am most connected with. I grew up going to church 3 or 4 times a week and was well immersed in the culture and the Bible. I still love Biblical reference in literature. I still find the Gospels inspiring and beautiful. I still find genuinely felt religious music to be almost euphoric. (A friend said, we go back to our childhood when we hear all those, before all the doubts set in, when belief was simple and childlike). I have too many doubts now, but that is personal.

I don't have a problem with core faith. It's all in the presentation.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Nice post, BonosSaint .

Personally, I don't care if people are Christians. If that is the religion that works for them, that's great. I'm happy they've found something that means so much to them. And considering that I was raised in the Christian faith, it'd be pretty stupid of me to totally disregard Christians in general. BonosSaint is right, there are very cool Christians out there who do wonderful things, I really appreciate them and everything they do for people.

I just don't like it when I get some Christians sitting there telling me that my beliefs are wrong or stupid or that I'm a bad person for believing this or not believing that or whatever, which has happened before, or that they're right about everything and someone else is wrong. How exactly do they know? They can believe that everything they follow is true, but how can they prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're right and we're all wrong? That's the thing that I always get confused about. And I wouldn't like the kind of behavior I'm referring to here from people of other faiths, or from non-religious people, either.

Bottom line, so long as people are respectful of my religious beliefs, I will stay respectful of theirs. It's that simple for me. And I won't stereotype one group as evil because of the way some people act. That's not fair to those who don't act that way.

Angela

 

[coemgen]

Wow! BonosSaint and MoonlitAngel — those are two of the coolest posts I've ever read in FYM.

BonosSaint, your comments on the Bible are beautifully accurate. Also, I couldn't agree with you more — it is tough to find one's identity as a Christian in this world. The right-wing Christianity, of which I can say I used to somewhat subscribe to, doesn't cut it. Some of it may be well intended, but it's not necessarily all Biblical. I agree it has been hijacked and is now causing people outside of the faith to see Christianity as more of a political party, rather than a faith. For me as a Christian, I identify in some ways with both parties and I am angry at both parties. It is a tough time to be a Christian (certainly MUCH tougher in other countries. We have it good here in the U.S.) However, Christ told us it would be tough. Really, it's always going to be to some degree. Our identity however, should, in the end, come through Christ.
My prayer for all Christians is that we don't let other people's "Christianity" get in the way of our own relationship with Christ. God wants our hearts as individuals, not for us to simply be a member of a certain group. (No, I'm not saying relationships with other Christians are unimportant, I'm simply saying we shouldn't be turned off to the faith because of other's misrepresentation of it. Of course, in the end, all Christians are hypocrites anyway because we're striving to reach Christ-like perfection, which is unattainable.)
I sincerely hope and pray I can be the kind of Christian that you lift up in your post, BonosSaint. I'm afraid I've got a ways to go.

Thanks again for your posts and God bless guys.

 

[BonosSaint]

Thank you, Coemgen. You too (U2?), Angela.

 

[Teta040]

LOL Irvine! I almost had a heart attack there!

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

You too (U2?), Angela.

Heh, you're welcome . And thanks, coemgen .

Angela

 

[datatyme]

If there is no God, you don't need him.

But if there is a God, everyone needs him, wouldn't you think?

It would depend on which God you are talking about and where you live geographically. In certain parts of the world you "need Jesus", "need Yahweh", "need Allah", "need Jehovah", "need Dagda", "need a god and goddess" or "need the various Hindu gods", etc. to help you through the tough times life is sure to dish out.

Then there are variations of them all to consider. There are over 30,000 forms of Christianity out there, is there a right one? Believers in various gods around the world all have their prayers answered with the same frequency, sometimes yes, sometimes no. So pick one that you like, or go the easy route and choose the religion of those around you. Pray that your God will help you, and have faith and all will be well, or at least it won't seem so bad. Or you could have personal relationships with living and talking people, and take personal responsibility for yourself and your needs instead of relying on something magical to happen.

Many popular gods have come and gone over the years. Is there still anyone alive who believes if there's thunder and lightning, Zeus is mad at us? Of course not, we understand how these things actually happen. The early gods were in the trees, dirt, plants, etc.; then we understood those things so the gods took to the sky (the sun and moon). Fifty years ago, some people thought that maybe astronauts might actually see God hovering above the planet, but God was not found. Then God moved galaxies away but as our telescopes grew more powerful, God has disappeared altogether to an invisible realm that is undetectible by physical beings. How convenient.

God sure is good at staying one step ahead of our detection. How I miss the old days of dieties visiting us personally, writing letters to us, or verbally answering our prayers with undenyable miracles. Now a mere coincidence or someone recovering from an illness under doctor's care is called a miracle.

How I long for the days when God actually did something (or did he?), it would make belief so much easier. As it stands now, I don't believe in any of the gods, but I love U2's religious lyrics because they are often questioning God's lack of either ambition or ability.

 

[80sU2isBest]

There are over 30,000 forms of Christianity out there, is there a right one?

If by "forms", you mean "denominations", with relatively minor doctrinal beliefs such as tongues/not tongues, immersion/dunking, then yes there are many denominations. However, the basic tenentsof Christianity bind us all together: the belief that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, member of the Trinity, God in the flesh, died on the cross and rose back to life to pay the price of the sins of the world, so that man might be redeemed through him.

Or you could have personal relationships with living and talking people, and take personal responsibility for yourself and your needs instead of relying on something magical to happen.

Having religious beliefs precludes none of that, oh smarmy one.

Now a mere coincidence or someone recovering from an illness under doctor's care is called a miracle.

What do you call it when a man on his death bed who had pneumonia in both lungs and was not responding to meds suddenly had the pneumonia leave both lungs, prompting even the doctor to say it was unexplained? It happened - to my father. Everyone thought he would die soon, including the doctors, except me. I just had this peace that he wouldn't. And he didn't.

How I long for the days when God actually did something (or did he?), it would make belief so much easier.

As I recounted in my Father's story, God still works visible miracles. If you'd like further evidence, I can go into a detailed account of the time God told me to stop at the intersection, even though my light green, and when I obeyed, a car I had not see busted her red light at a high rate of speed - if I had not obeyed the voice, either she or I or both would have died.

As it stands now, I don't believe in any of the gods, but I love U2's religious lyrics because they are often questioning God's lack of either ambition or ability.

Often? About 5 songs in the entire U2 catalog is "often"? If you stopped listening there, then you've missed the whole point. U2's songs are often like the Psalms, in which David questions God but still has faith and praises him. Don't lump U2 in there with someone who so readily ridicules God and people of faith.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Can I ask a question, 80s? Your honest opinion, I mean. Once I was driving on a fairly empty highway, my mum and sister were in the car with me. I was in the inside lane and about 30 metres up in the lane ahead was a truck laden with the wooden frame kit for a new house, all packed and stacked neatly. I had to turn about a km up, from the very left lane (3 lanes across) but I merged out way before I was due. As I indicated, the truck's load came undone and pine frame planks went flying everywhere, bouncing down the lane I had just exited. Now, my shakey relationship with Christianity is probably well known, but I do feel it is seperate from any relationship with God, though it seems this is disagreeable to some for their any number of reasons. But do you think that kind of thing is God intervening and looking out for us? Why me, is probably something someone would assume to ask as I dont hide my resistance to religion overall, but what would be your interpretation of that? I dont disbelieve in God, only question things. My problem is in day to day Christianity, and not even always Christians, as such. So is this God knowing me well? And intervening or whatever it is called, that He does? Skeptics call it dumb luck. I'm not sure.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Now, my shakey relationship with Christianity is probably well known, but I do feel it is seperate from any relationship with God, though it seems this is disagreeable to some for their any number of reasons. But do you think that kind of thing is God intervening and looking out for us? Why me, is probably something someone would assume to ask as I dont hide my resistance to religion overall, but what would be your interpretation of that? I dont disbelieve in God, only question things. My problem is in day to day Christianity, and not even always Christians, as such. So is this God knowing me well? And intervening or whatever it is called, that He does? Skeptics call it dumb luck. I'm not sure.

Well, I'm not quite sure. But I do believe that what Bono is said is true - "blessings aren't just for those who kneel". I believe that God's love for a person isn't dependent on whether that person believes, struggles with belief, whatever. I think it is very possible that you found yourself smack dab in the middle of a miracle. The thing I would ask is this: Did you just "happen" to exit the lane, for no reason - pure coincidence, or did reason tell you that it might not be a good idea to drive behind that truck? I'm not sure I'd classify that as a "miracle". However, if you switched lanes because you felt something/someone other than yourself was telling you to, or if you felt an unknown, unexplained, unease in the pit of your stomach, I'd say it's very likely God was intervening in your life.