Religious Fanatics and those who oppose them running our country PLEASE POST HERE - Page 9 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-04-2004, 04:30 AM   #121
Refugee
 
bcrt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,271
Local Time: 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
If one may inquire, how is the Iranian legal system not based on an Islamic doctrine; that revolution in '79 wasn't just changing the flag it was a genuine Islamic Revolution and to this day the Mullahs are holding the power where it matters.

http://www.activistchat.com/
Its a very extreme interpretation which has inequalities towards muslims, just as you said yourself.. something which islam is not for... the wide belief of moderate muslims is that there is no country which has implemented a correct way of shariah and there probably never will be until Jesus comes back to earth.. its kind of funny because even the Prophet said himself that correct Islamic law will only last for 20 or so (or 40? i'm not sure) years after his death... so I think living under a democractic law system like Canada's is actually much more islamic than Iran's system
__________________

__________________
bcrt2000 is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 04:32 AM   #122
Refugee
 
bcrt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,271
Local Time: 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Whoah lets go easy on the paraphrasing in the quotes, there was context to the FGM bt, which makes the point that it is not an Islamic problem, more of a N-African tribal problem.
It is a product of society, and if one were to paint the Islamic world as a homogeneous society you would be reaching from the Balkans through to Java - that would be one very broad brush encompassing 1,2 billion people living in a whole lot of different circumstances with a whole lot of different history. Anyhow vastly different societies all the way through and vastly different conditioning which shapes those societies. One cannot blame a religious text for the shit that goes on in the world, but we can sure as hell point the finger at those that use religion to consolidate their own personal power and as a weapon against innocents.

As I have said before most human beings are decent folk regardless of their religion - but given the (im)proper conditioning and opportunities one can express their own hatreds through their faith.
sorry I wasn't accusing you of misuse of the FGM example, I was just trying to expand it so other people knew the background

i think improper conditioning in any case will have people expressing hatred, regardless of religion

i'd just like to add something else... I think in Islam I really find my love for other people and appreciate the way other people live after educating myself about the roots of Islam and the meanings of the messages given in the Quran and hadith, and the music of U2 really helps me augment this quality

and that kind of brings me to a tangent and even a correction of one of my previous arguments, uneducation about religion is probably the root cause for terrorism, and events such as whats going on in Israel/Palestine lead to the expression of hatred due to uneducation
__________________

__________________
bcrt2000 is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 04:34 AM   #123
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 07:16 AM
Bin Ladens language in the recent tape was very different than his others, no more talk about conquering or destroying and a lot more about concessions and you dont hurt me and I wont hurt you, a very marked change of tune - he was adressing westerners making a plea that they could understand, and he did it very well.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 04:37 AM   #124
Refugee
 
bcrt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,271
Local Time: 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Bin Ladens language in the recent tape was very different than his others, no more talk about conquering or destroying and a lot more about concessions and you dont hurt me and I wont hurt you, a very marked change of tune - he was adressing westerners making a plea that they could understand, and he did it very well.
and even though I have a hate for Bin Laden and his doctine and how he really polarized the opinion of Muslims around the world, I think I really welcomed this new message because on CNN Crossfire, the republican host,Tucker Carlson (sp?) even brought up the point that now maybe is a time to start a dialogue to really find where the root causes of terrorism is and to remedy this with the help of the muslim world.. it really humanized the middle east, which is something that was needed
__________________
bcrt2000 is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 04:44 AM   #125
Refugee
 
bcrt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,271
Local Time: 05:16 PM
something that came to light right now just as I was thinking about this discussion (and listening to "please" from the 1997 MTV VMA's) is that one of the major things about Islam was that after the major wars were over, the religion was made to be a personal religion, everyone is really responsible for their own actions, and has their own connection with God, and the way you live shouldn't be governed by others, because you really need to find faith in your heart and act upon it from your heart, not in others and from others
__________________
bcrt2000 is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 04:45 AM   #126
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 07:16 AM
I do not see it as a call for self-reflection, I am thinking in terms of political value and usage here and I do believe that it is to throw his enemies offtrack.

The hardcore element of that movement have no desire for peace, they desire destruction. They really have more in common with Hale Bopp death-cultists than any religion - I do not see it as a call for detente rather a play at misdirection to get the west to understand the generic "root causes" so as to buy time for consolidating power over a now fractured and decapitated organization.

Right in that it requires the Muslim world to end this, the question becomes how
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 04:49 AM   #127
Refugee
 
bcrt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,271
Local Time: 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I do not see it as a call for self-reflection, I am thinking in terms of political value and usage here and I do believe that it is to throw his enemies offtrack.

The hardcore element of that movement have no desire for peace, they desire destruction. They really have more in common with Hale Bopp death-cultists than any religion - I do not see it as a call for detente rather a play at misdirection to get the west to understand the generic "root causes" so as to buy time for consolidating power over a now fractured and decapitated organization.
well whatever the case, I think everyone hopes otherwise.. you're always going to have bad apples, theres 1.3+ billion muslims in the world, so having 100,000 I don't think could be attributed to a major flaw in Islamic doctrine.. maybe a major flaw in Islamic society or the muslim world, but I think thats expected.. and that doesn't mean the muslim world should sit on their hands either and not do anything about it

i think before anything, the muslim world needs to unite before we see muslims solving these problems... being realistic here, unfortunately i think only a major calamity towards muslims can unite the muslims around the world, but we can always hope otherwise
__________________
bcrt2000 is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 04:55 AM   #128
Refugee
 
bcrt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,271
Local Time: 05:16 PM
anyways, I have to go get ready for school, I thought this was a nice discussion, stuff like this always helps me refine my views
__________________
bcrt2000 is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 04:58 AM   #129
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 07:16 AM
Equally so, civility is a virtue that is best found after elections. Have a good day
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 07:24 AM   #130
War Child
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: New York, NY, USA
Posts: 613
Local Time: 09:16 PM
Re: Re: Religious Fanatics and those who oppose them running our country PLEASE POST HERE

Quote:
Originally posted by RTSS


I ask YOU in your deepest heart, would God/Jesus say that seperation of church and state (which, by the way, has no relation at all to what you are talking about) should keep HIM out of politics? I think not.

P.S. Please, I really didn't want to reply to this post, or any of the posts I've replied to. They're blatant attacks against Christians but I respond because the truth must be told.
Excuse me, but Seperation of Church and State has EVERYTHING to do with what I'm saying. I quote Thomas Jefferson:

"I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. "

Banning gay marriage is a violation of this: making a law with respect to an established religion. Same thing goes for Bush trying to reverse Roe Vs. Wade. It's wrong.

And another thing, I am grew up in the south and I am a christian and I am not attacking Christians. That is a ridiculous generalization of what I have been saying. I am merely critisizing the BUsh Administration for violating Seperation of Church and State. Don't tell me I am attacking anyone because they believe in the same religion I do. That is just "stupid"!! And my description of Southern folk is not a generalization. These are specific people that I grew up with!
__________________
tackleberry is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 07:48 AM   #131
Blue Crack Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 17,927
Local Time: 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I agree with you but there is a big difference between not allowing gay marriage and opressing women, gays can live their lives openly (an exceptional thing in this world), I think that it is a false moral equivalence.
I am a woman and I am not opressed. I am a woman and I don't believe anyone should have a 'right' to 'choose' to kill their child for their own convenience any more than a woman should be able to kill her ex husband or a coworker because they are interfering with what she wants to do. I won't get into this whole debate again, but I don't see believing abortion is murder and wrong is 'oppressing' women. We have a pretty damn good life here, much better than in Saudi Arabia.

I don't think a lot of you understand, or even want to understand, how strongly some people feel about abortion being evil. To some people, the attitude that 'I am personally opposed but won't stop others' is the same as saying "I'm not killing my wife, but if OJ wants to, that's his choice, who am I to judge his conscience?" Supporting a candidate who votes in favor of supporting abortion makes some people feel like they are condoning it, allowing it to continue, and that the blood is somehow on their hands too. Ridicule if you want, many good people feel this deeply. (*BTW, my opposition to abortion is a feeling of wrong in the depths of my heart, mind and soul, it's not based on religion)

While I do oppose abortion on the grounds of it being the taking of an innocent life, I really don't care who gays or anyone else marry. It's not hurting anyone. I don't believe there will ever be an amendment against it either. Amendments give rights, they don't take them away. But even if gay marriage remains illegal, no one except a few crazy murderers are attacking anyone for being gay. Homosexual relationships have become more open and publicallyacceptable in the US and that's not going to change even if gay marriage is never officially allowed.

We had a huge voter turnout, and I don't think it was all 'hicks' or 'religious fanatics' voting for Bush!
__________________
U2Kitten is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 08:11 AM   #132
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 01:16 PM
Re: Re: Re: Religious Fanatics and those who oppose them running our country PLEASE POST HERE

Quote:
Originally posted by tackleberry
Excuse me, but Seperation of Church and State has EVERYTHING to do with what I'm saying. I quote Thomas Jefferson:

"I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. "
Read the Constitution. All of Jefferson's writings do not equal the Constitution.

You will always have a different world view when you selectively change the wording or meaning of the controlling law.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 08:24 AM   #133
War Child
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: New York, NY, USA
Posts: 613
Local Time: 09:16 PM
Re: Re: Re: Re: Religious Fanatics and those who oppose them running our country PLEASE POST HERE

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Read the Constitution. All of Jefferson's writings do not equal the Constitution.

You will always have a different world view when you selectively change the wording or meaning of the controlling law.
I never said "all of Jefferson's writings equal the Constitution"
But this one certainly does make a pretty darn clear point, and no one is twisting the meaning of the law. Looks pretty clear from here.
__________________
tackleberry is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 08:31 AM   #134
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
speedracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: MD
Posts: 7,572
Local Time: 04:16 PM
"The Church" and "an individual's values, possibly religiously motivated" are not identical.
__________________
speedracer is offline  
Old 11-04-2004, 08:59 AM   #135
Acrobat
 
U2Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 472
Local Time: 02:16 PM
I am LDS, surrounded by very conservative and good people, but I voted for Kerry. So did my husband. Why? Because I truly want change MORE. My conservative views showed up in other ways, but I simply couldn't let Bush be reelected whether he reflects my views more or not.

BUT, I believe that we should make the most out of what we've got, hope for the best, and give Bush a chance. There weren't really good choices on either side. I believe a lot of Americans wanted change, but opted to wait for better choices rather than to go from a so-so choice to a so-so choice.

I look forward to the next elections. I think better candidates will be available. I'm all for voting for a woman Democrat this time. I think now is the ripe time for a woman.

I vote for the PERSON, for how they will deal with the big issues, period.

I think that people like Michael Moore, Bin Laden, celebrities and many Europeans, as well as Kerry's wishy-washy ways, and mediocrity, and our desire to not pull the rug out from under our troops are the reasons Kerry lost this election.

I think that characterizing Bush's win as one based on morality is doing religious people a grave injustice, and I think it was on purpose. Democrats will never win if they do this. Religious people do think, just as much as anyone else, and a better Democratic candidate WILL win. But, not if Democratic supporters now start blaming and insulting religious people in America. Mark my words.
__________________

__________________
U2Traveller is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com