Religious Fanatics and those who oppose them running our country PLEASE POST HERE

[bcrt2000]

If one may inquire, how is the Iranian legal system not based on an Islamic doctrine; that revolution in '79 wasn't just changing the flag it was a genuine Islamic Revolution and to this day the Mullahs are holding the power where it matters.

http://www.activistchat.com/

Its a very extreme interpretation which has inequalities towards muslims, just as you said yourself.. something which islam is not for... the wide belief of moderate muslims is that there is no country which has implemented a correct way of shariah and there probably never will be until Jesus comes back to earth.. its kind of funny because even the Prophet said himself that correct Islamic law will only last for 20 or so (or 40? i'm not sure) years after his death... so I think living under a democractic law system like Canada's is actually much more islamic than Iran's system

 

[bcrt2000]

Whoah lets go easy on the paraphrasing in the quotes, there was context to the FGM bt, which makes the point that it is not an Islamic problem, more of a N-African tribal problem.
It is a product of society, and if one were to paint the Islamic world as a homogeneous society you would be reaching from the Balkans through to Java - that would be one very broad brush encompassing 1,2 billion people living in a whole lot of different circumstances with a whole lot of different history. Anyhow vastly different societies all the way through and vastly different conditioning which shapes those societies. One cannot blame a religious text for the shit that goes on in the world, but we can sure as hell point the finger at those that use religion to consolidate their own personal power and as a weapon against innocents.

As I have said before most human beings are decent folk regardless of their religion - but given the (im)proper conditioning and opportunities one can express their own hatreds through their faith.

sorry I wasn't accusing you of misuse of the FGM example, I was just trying to expand it so other people knew the background

i think improper conditioning in any case will have people expressing hatred, regardless of religion

i'd just like to add something else... I think in Islam I really find my love for other people and appreciate the way other people live after educating myself about the roots of Islam and the meanings of the messages given in the Quran and hadith, and the music of U2 really helps me augment this quality

and that kind of brings me to a tangent and even a correction of one of my previous arguments, uneducation about religion is probably the root cause for terrorism, and events such as whats going on in Israel/Palestine lead to the expression of hatred due to uneducation

 

[A_Wanderer]

Bin Ladens language in the recent tape was very different than his others, no more talk about conquering or destroying and a lot more about concessions and you dont hurt me and I wont hurt you, a very marked change of tune - he was adressing westerners making a plea that they could understand, and he did it very well.

 

[bcrt2000]

Bin Ladens language in the recent tape was very different than his others, no more talk about conquering or destroying and a lot more about concessions and you dont hurt me and I wont hurt you, a very marked change of tune - he was adressing westerners making a plea that they could understand, and he did it very well.

and even though I have a hate for Bin Laden and his doctine and how he really polarized the opinion of Muslims around the world, I think I really welcomed this new message because on CNN Crossfire, the republican host,Tucker Carlson (sp?) even brought up the point that now maybe is a time to start a dialogue to really find where the root causes of terrorism is and to remedy this with the help of the muslim world.. it really humanized the middle east, which is something that was needed

 

[bcrt2000]

something that came to light right now just as I was thinking about this discussion (and listening to "please" from the 1997 MTV VMA's) is that one of the major things about Islam was that after the major wars were over, the religion was made to be a personal religion, everyone is really responsible for their own actions, and has their own connection with God, and the way you live shouldn't be governed by others, because you really need to find faith in your heart and act upon it from your heart, not in others and from others

 

[A_Wanderer]

I do not see it as a call for self-reflection, I am thinking in terms of political value and usage here and I do believe that it is to throw his enemies offtrack.

The hardcore element of that movement have no desire for peace, they desire destruction. They really have more in common with Hale Bopp death-cultists than any religion - I do not see it as a call for detente rather a play at misdirection to get the west to understand the generic "root causes" so as to buy time for consolidating power over a now fractured and decapitated organization.

Right in that it requires the Muslim world to end this, the question becomes how

 

[bcrt2000]

I do not see it as a call for self-reflection, I am thinking in terms of political value and usage here and I do believe that it is to throw his enemies offtrack.

The hardcore element of that movement have no desire for peace, they desire destruction. They really have more in common with Hale Bopp death-cultists than any religion - I do not see it as a call for detente rather a play at misdirection to get the west to understand the generic "root causes" so as to buy time for consolidating power over a now fractured and decapitated organization.

well whatever the case, I think everyone hopes otherwise.. you're always going to have bad apples, theres 1.3+ billion muslims in the world, so having 100,000 I don't think could be attributed to a major flaw in Islamic doctrine.. maybe a major flaw in Islamic society or the muslim world, but I think thats expected.. and that doesn't mean the muslim world should sit on their hands either and not do anything about it

i think before anything, the muslim world needs to unite before we see muslims solving these problems... being realistic here, unfortunately i think only a major calamity towards muslims can unite the muslims around the world, but we can always hope otherwise

 

[bcrt2000]

anyways, I have to go get ready for school, I thought this was a nice discussion, stuff like this always helps me refine my views

 

[A_Wanderer]

Equally so, civility is a virtue that is best found after elections. Have a good day

 

[tackleberry]

Re: Re: Religious Fanatics and those who oppose them running our country PLEASE POST HERE

I ask YOU in your deepest heart, would God/Jesus say that seperation of church and state (which, by the way, has no relation at all to what you are talking about) should keep HIM out of politics? I think not.

P.S. Please, I really didn't want to reply to this post, or any of the posts I've replied to. They're blatant attacks against Christians but I respond because the truth must be told.

Excuse me, but Seperation of Church and State has EVERYTHING to do with what I'm saying. I quote Thomas Jefferson:

"I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. "

Banning gay marriage is a violation of this: making a law with respect to an established religion. Same thing goes for Bush trying to reverse Roe Vs. Wade. It's wrong.

And another thing, I am grew up in the south and I am a christian and I am not attacking Christians. That is a ridiculous generalization of what I have been saying. I am merely critisizing the BUsh Administration for violating Seperation of Church and State. Don't tell me I am attacking anyone because they believe in the same religion I do. That is just "stupid"!! And my description of Southern folk is not a generalization. These are specific people that I grew up with!

 

[U2Kitten]

I agree with you but there is a big difference between not allowing gay marriage and opressing women, gays can live their lives openly (an exceptional thing in this world), I think that it is a false moral equivalence.

I am a woman and I am not opressed. I am a woman and I don't believe anyone should have a 'right' to 'choose' to kill their child for their own convenience any more than a woman should be able to kill her ex husband or a coworker because they are interfering with what she wants to do. I won't get into this whole debate again, but I don't see believing abortion is murder and wrong is 'oppressing' women. We have a pretty damn good life here, much better than in Saudi Arabia.

I don't think a lot of you understand, or even want to understand, how strongly some people feel about abortion being evil. To some people, the attitude that 'I am personally opposed but won't stop others' is the same as saying "I'm not killing my wife, but if OJ wants to, that's his choice, who am I to judge his conscience?" Supporting a candidate who votes in favor of supporting abortion makes some people feel like they are condoning it, allowing it to continue, and that the blood is somehow on their hands too. Ridicule if you want, many good people feel this deeply. (*BTW, my opposition to abortion is a feeling of wrong in the depths of my heart, mind and soul, it's not based on religion)

While I do oppose abortion on the grounds of it being the taking of an innocent life, I really don't care who gays or anyone else marry. It's not hurting anyone. I don't believe there will ever be an amendment against it either. Amendments give rights, they don't take them away. But even if gay marriage remains illegal, no one except a few crazy murderers are attacking anyone for being gay. Homosexual relationships have become more open and publicallyacceptable in the US and that's not going to change even if gay marriage is never officially allowed.

We had a huge voter turnout, and I don't think it was all 'hicks' or 'religious fanatics' voting for Bush!

 

[nbcrusader]

Re: Re: Re: Religious Fanatics and those who oppose them running our country PLEASE POST HERE

Excuse me, but Seperation of Church and State has EVERYTHING to do with what I'm saying. I quote Thomas Jefferson:

"I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. "

Read the Constitution. All of Jefferson's writings do not equal the Constitution.

You will always have a different world view when you selectively change the wording or meaning of the controlling law.

 

[tackleberry]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Religious Fanatics and those who oppose them running our country PLEASE POST HERE

Read the Constitution. All of Jefferson's writings do not equal the Constitution.

You will always have a different world view when you selectively change the wording or meaning of the controlling law.

I never said "all of Jefferson's writings equal the Constitution"
But this one certainly does make a pretty darn clear point, and no one is twisting the meaning of the law. Looks pretty clear from here.

 

[speedracer]

"The Church" and "an individual's values, possibly religiously motivated" are not identical.

 

[U2Traveller]

I am LDS, surrounded by very conservative and good people, but I voted for Kerry. So did my husband. Why? Because I truly want change MORE. My conservative views showed up in other ways, but I simply couldn't let Bush be reelected whether he reflects my views more or not.

BUT, I believe that we should make the most out of what we've got, hope for the best, and give Bush a chance. There weren't really good choices on either side. I believe a lot of Americans wanted change, but opted to wait for better choices rather than to go from a so-so choice to a so-so choice.

I look forward to the next elections. I think better candidates will be available. I'm all for voting for a woman Democrat this time. I think now is the ripe time for a woman.

I vote for the PERSON, for how they will deal with the big issues, period.

I think that people like Michael Moore, Bin Laden, celebrities and many Europeans, as well as Kerry's wishy-washy ways, and mediocrity, and our desire to not pull the rug out from under our troops are the reasons Kerry lost this election.

I think that characterizing Bush's win as one based on morality is doing religious people a grave injustice, and I think it was on purpose. Democrats will never win if they do this. Religious people do think, just as much as anyone else, and a better Democratic candidate WILL win. But, not if Democratic supporters now start blaming and insulting religious people in America. Mark my words.

 

[nbcrusader]

I never said "all of Jefferson's writings equal the Constitution"
But this one certainly does make a pretty darn clear point, and no one is twisting the meaning of the law. Looks pretty clear from here.

It is a clear twisting of the law to go from "No Establishment" to a wall separating the two.


Also, do a search on this board. I believe Jeffersons comments on this subject were posted. When taken in the aggregate, will give you a different view of what he was thinking.

 

[U2Traveller]

Why don't you stop insulting and blaming religious people and look at the truth.

 

[U2Traveller]

Bottom-line, if you start calling this a "moral-based" win and you start insulting religious people in America you are going to lose next time, too. AND, you'll activate even more Republican-tending people to vote next time, and those who might've voted for you WON'T.

 

[bcrt2000]

Why don't you stop insulting and blaming religious people and look at the truth.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Exit polls showed the majority of Bush voters voted for moral values. What exactly are you responding to?

 

[Flying FuManchu]

Exit polls also showed Bush was going to lose to Kerry. Exit polls showed the margins between the importance of terrorism, the economy, and moral values for Bush voter to be very slight. IMO, the whole moral values is sort of being overrated by the media. I'm not saying it didn't contribute to Kerry's downfall, but IMO it was just a part of it.

 

[U2Traveller]

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Exit polls showed the majority of Bush voters voted for moral values. What exactly are you responding to?

Like THEY are accurate.

This is the most religious state of all, Utah, and our Exit polls did NOT say that we voted largely for Bush because of our religious values. I do believe it was largely because of our troops overseas, and what is best for them.

What I'm trying to say is if Democrats and Democratic-supporters want to win next time ( I am very religious, and I took a chance and voted for Kerry) they need to look at the real reasons they lost and STOP insulting religous people. Religious people think.

They need to not lose their minds, but look at the real issues, and maybe get over a little prejudice and start working with religious people. It's amazing the demographics of this election. It truly shows what the rest of America has always seen, that the snooty people, and those who look down on the religious people in the middle are exactly where we thought they were, lol.

 

[U2Traveller]

Exit polls also showed Bush was going to lose to Kerry. Exit polls showed the margins between the importance of terrorism, the economy, and moral values for Bush voter to be very slight. IMO, the whole moral values is sort of being overrated by the media. I'm not saying it didn't contribute to Kerry's downfall, but IMO it was just a part of it.

I think bringing up that it was a moral win is just an insult to religious people, and it will contribute to their loss next time, as well.

It's their latest tactic. That's all.

I think it's amazing and truly exciting to see how it's all going to come down to religion...and those who are prejudiced towards religious people are going to make it so, NOT the other way around. They are the ones who are making morality and religion the reason and the issue NOW, and in the future.

 

[bcrt2000]

Like THEY are accurate.

This is the most religious state of all, Utah, and our Exit polls did NOT say that we voted largely for Bush because of our religious values. I do believe it was largely because of our troops overseas, and what is best for them.

What I'm trying to say is if Democrats and Democratic-supporters want to win next time ( I am very religious, and I took a chance and voted for Kerry) they need to look at the real reasons they lost and STOP insulting religous people. Religious people think.

They need to not lose their minds, but look at the real issues, and maybe get over a little prejudice and start working with religious people. It's amazing the demographics of this election. It truly shows what the rest of America has always seen, that the snooty people, and those who look down on the religious people in the middle are exactly where we thought they were, lol.

I see what you're getting at... the people who look down on religious people are just as closed minded as the religious people who look down on others.. however I think what people are getting at here is that the religious voters who did vote for Bush, they cared more about imposing certain laws against gays, abortion, etc (which may or may not be valid) over the way he treats terrorism (all people involved in terrorist actions are inherently evil, they don't have any greivences, never been opressed, aren't others like them that are going to sprout up for the same reasons, its okay if innocent civilians die alongside a *supposed* threat, all countries under conservative muslim law need to be liberated one by one and all of the people in those countries want to be liberated).. there are religious Christians/Jews who voted for Kerry, and its probably because they valued rebuilding the economy/foreign policy that Kerry wanted over laws against gays/abortion because laws against gays/abortion do not directly affect them, however the economy and foreign policy do... its true religious people did vote Bush for other reasons (another major one would obviously be the Troops, and the fact that they like the way Bush handles terrorism)

 

[tackleberry]

Like THEY are accurate.

This is the most religious state of all, Utah, and our Exit polls did NOT say that we voted largely for Bush because of our religious values. I do believe it was largely because of our troops overseas, and what is best for them.

What I'm trying to say is if Democrats and Democratic-supporters want to win next time ( I am very religious, and I took a chance and voted for Kerry) they need to look at the real reasons they lost and STOP insulting religous people. Religious people think.

They need to not lose their minds, but look at the real issues, and maybe get over a little prejudice and start working with religious people. It's amazing the demographics of this election. It truly shows what the rest of America has always seen, that the snooty people, and those who look down on the religious people in the middle are exactly where we thought they were, lol.

See. I am not insulting religious people. Jeez. I am simply trying to say that (a) it's a fact that people voted for Bush because of his religious beliefs, which I think are on the extreme side (I'm not saying all people voted for him because of religion and I am certainly not insulting religious people, (b) I believe that some of Bush's policies are being influenced too much by religion, and to me that is wrong in a country that has a freedom of religion and YES a seperation of church and state. Stop twistiing my words.

I agree, I think Democrats do need to work with religious people more. This is a good point.

But the government should not fund them. there's a difference. I'm not saying GWB has done this, but his brother has in Florida: Jeb Bush has funded Christian Prisons across Florida. These are Christian based, religious prisons, where the prisoners are made to learn christian teachings, masses, and must read Christian material. This is fine. I think they should have religious based prisons, BUT Jeb BUsh should not be funding them!! No. That is a specific violation of seperation of church and state and I for one fear that this could happen elsewhere, and this could send a wrong message to the rest of the world.

 

[U2Traveller]

I see what you're getting at... the people who look down on religious people are just as closed minded as the religious people who look down on others.. however I think what people are getting at here is that the religious voters who did vote for Bush, they cared more about imposing certain laws against gays, abortion, etc (which may or may not be valid) over the way he treats terrorism (all people involved in terrorist actions are inherently evil, they don't have any greivences, never been opressed, aren't others like them that are going to sprout up for the same reasons, its okay if innocent civilians die alongside a *supposed* threat, all countries under conservative muslim law need to be liberated one by one and all of the people in those countries want to be liberated).. there are religious Christians/Jews who voted for Kerry, and its probably because they valued rebuilding the economy/foreign policy that Kerry wanted over laws against gays/abortion because laws against gays/abortion do not directly affect them, however the economy and foreign policy do... its true religious people did vote Bush for other reasons (another major one would obviously be the Troops, and the fact that they like the way Bush handles terrorism)

I don't think religious people cared more for religious issues than Iraq, etc. I do believe very strongly they care very much for what's going on in the world, and it's just their latest tactic to insult and blame religious people, and it will backfire. You can vote for Kerry and vote for makine sure your state constitutions states that marriage is between and man and woman. I did. The point is...Kerry supporters could and did vote for these amendments, and Bush supporters didn't. That is NOT the issue and the reason that Bush won...period.

If you think so, you're missing the boat, and you'll lose next time because you're insulting religious people and because you're not fixing the real problems. Your loss may even get worse.

 

[bcrt2000]

I agree, I think Democrats do need to work with religious people more. This is a good point.

actually, you know what I think is even more important? religious Christians/Jews working with the Muslim community, opening dialogues, etc... if anyone here is involved in a mosque/church/synagogue in their local community they should really bring this up with their community leaders because I really think this is critical to understand the ways of the middle east (and to understand that countries like Iran don't represent true Islamic Law... AND for muslims to integrate themselves more into western society WITHOUT losing their identity) and maybe to humanize the people on the other side a bit more so that we're not in a rush to go to war with these countries... and I think the same is true for the government, to get more involved, having better relations with muslim leaders, getting down to the core problems, etc

 

[U2Traveller]

actually, you know what I think is even more important? religious Christians/Jews working with the Muslim community, opening dialogues, etc... if anyone here is involved in a mosque/church/synagogue in their local community they should really bring this up with their community leaders because I really think this is critical to understand the ways of the middle east (and to understand that countries like Iran don't represent true Islamic Law... AND for muslims to integrate themselves more into western society WITHOUT losing their identity) and maybe to humanize the people on the other side a bit more so that we're not in a rush to go to war with these countries... and I think the same is true for the government, to get more involved, having better relations with muslim leaders, getting down to the core problems, etc

Well, I know that my religion works well with others, if they let us, if you know what I mean. In other words, we're not bigots, and we don't fight against other religions, but sometimes they fight against us.

Our church does a lot of good for these countries, inlcuding Africa.

I do not see where there's a problem here hating Muslims, etc. We do not think their religion is inferior. We do not think that's a reason to attack them. I do believe that we are truly only supporting a war on terrorism, most religious people, largely. There are always bigots who are religions and non-religious.

I believe religious people DO have the power and the real influence in this world. Even Bono has recognized that. And I do think we can and should do more.

 

[bcrt2000]

Well, I know that my religion works well with others, if they let us, if you know what I mean. In other words, we're not bigots, and we don't fight against other religions, but sometimes they fight against us.

Our church does a lot of good for these countries, inlcuding Africa.

I do not see where there's a problem here hating Muslims, etc. We do not think their religion is inferior. We do not think that's a reason to attack them. I do believe that we are truly only supporting a war on terrorism, most religious people, largely. There are always bigots who are religions and non-religious.

I believe religious people DO have the power and the real influence in this world. Even Bono has recognized that. And I do think we can and should do more.

well i'm a muslim and the sense in the muslim community at large really is that right wing Americans don't understand Islam and they have a fear for it, which is why they approve pre-emptive attacking of other countries (which inturn breeds more terrorism unfortunately)... if the case is that most right wingers do understand Islam and Muslims, then there still needs to be that dialogue opened so that theres a mutual understanding between communities

 

[bcrt2000]

I believe religious people DO have the power and the real influence in this world. Even Bono has recognized that. And I do think we can and should do more.

I just hope people like us don't forget the major part of religion... LOVE... its something that I think I didn't learn until post 9/11, and what really solidified this aspect of me really was the example of Bono, his lyrics and work for Africa

 

[nbcrusader]

well i'm a muslim and the sense in the muslim community at large really is that right wing Americans don't understand Islam and they have a fear for it, which is why they approve pre-emptive attacking of other countries (which inturn breeds more terrorism unfortunately)... if the case is that most right wingers do understand Islam and Muslims, then there still needs to be that dialogue opened so that theres a mutual understanding between communities

Perhaps it would be helpful for the Muslim community to (i) educate the US public on the basic tenants of Islam (not the simplistic "we worship the same God" stuff, but the 5 pillars, etc.) and (ii) take a more vocal role against the militant elements of the Islamic faith.