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Old 11-04-2004, 09:07 AM   #136
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Originally posted by tackleberry


I never said "all of Jefferson's writings equal the Constitution"
But this one certainly does make a pretty darn clear point, and no one is twisting the meaning of the law. Looks pretty clear from here.
It is a clear twisting of the law to go from "No Establishment" to a wall separating the two.


Also, do a search on this board. I believe Jeffersons comments on this subject were posted. When taken in the aggregate, will give you a different view of what he was thinking.
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:11 AM   #137
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Why don't you stop insulting and blaming religious people and look at the truth.
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:25 AM   #138
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Bottom-line, if you start calling this a "moral-based" win and you start insulting religious people in America you are going to lose next time, too. AND, you'll activate even more Republican-tending people to vote next time, and those who might've voted for you WON'T.
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:28 AM   #139
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Originally posted by U2Traveller
Why don't you stop insulting and blaming religious people and look at the truth.
I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Exit polls showed the majority of Bush voters voted for moral values. What exactly are you responding to?
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:32 AM   #140
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Exit polls also showed Bush was going to lose to Kerry. Exit polls showed the margins between the importance of terrorism, the economy, and moral values for Bush voter to be very slight. IMO, the whole moral values is sort of being overrated by the media. I'm not saying it didn't contribute to Kerry's downfall, but IMO it was just a part of it.
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:34 AM   #141
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I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Exit polls showed the majority of Bush voters voted for moral values. What exactly are you responding to?
Like THEY are accurate.

This is the most religious state of all, Utah, and our Exit polls did NOT say that we voted largely for Bush because of our religious values. I do believe it was largely because of our troops overseas, and what is best for them.

What I'm trying to say is if Democrats and Democratic-supporters want to win next time ( I am very religious, and I took a chance and voted for Kerry) they need to look at the real reasons they lost and STOP insulting religous people. Religious people think.

They need to not lose their minds, but look at the real issues, and maybe get over a little prejudice and start working with religious people. It's amazing the demographics of this election. It truly shows what the rest of America has always seen, that the snooty people, and those who look down on the religious people in the middle are exactly where we thought they were, lol.
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:35 AM   #142
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Originally posted by Flying FuManchu
Exit polls also showed Bush was going to lose to Kerry. Exit polls showed the margins between the importance of terrorism, the economy, and moral values for Bush voter to be very slight. IMO, the whole moral values is sort of being overrated by the media. I'm not saying it didn't contribute to Kerry's downfall, but IMO it was just a part of it.
I think bringing up that it was a moral win is just an insult to religious people, and it will contribute to their loss next time, as well.

It's their latest tactic. That's all.

I think it's amazing and truly exciting to see how it's all going to come down to religion...and those who are prejudiced towards religious people are going to make it so, NOT the other way around. They are the ones who are making morality and religion the reason and the issue NOW, and in the future.
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:47 AM   #143
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Originally posted by U2Traveller


Like THEY are accurate.

This is the most religious state of all, Utah, and our Exit polls did NOT say that we voted largely for Bush because of our religious values. I do believe it was largely because of our troops overseas, and what is best for them.

What I'm trying to say is if Democrats and Democratic-supporters want to win next time ( I am very religious, and I took a chance and voted for Kerry) they need to look at the real reasons they lost and STOP insulting religous people. Religious people think.

They need to not lose their minds, but look at the real issues, and maybe get over a little prejudice and start working with religious people. It's amazing the demographics of this election. It truly shows what the rest of America has always seen, that the snooty people, and those who look down on the religious people in the middle are exactly where we thought they were, lol.
I see what you're getting at... the people who look down on religious people are just as closed minded as the religious people who look down on others.. however I think what people are getting at here is that the religious voters who did vote for Bush, they cared more about imposing certain laws against gays, abortion, etc (which may or may not be valid) over the way he treats terrorism (all people involved in terrorist actions are inherently evil, they don't have any greivences, never been opressed, aren't others like them that are going to sprout up for the same reasons, its okay if innocent civilians die alongside a *supposed* threat, all countries under conservative muslim law need to be liberated one by one and all of the people in those countries want to be liberated).. there are religious Christians/Jews who voted for Kerry, and its probably because they valued rebuilding the economy/foreign policy that Kerry wanted over laws against gays/abortion because laws against gays/abortion do not directly affect them, however the economy and foreign policy do... its true religious people did vote Bush for other reasons (another major one would obviously be the Troops, and the fact that they like the way Bush handles terrorism)
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:48 AM   #144
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Originally posted by U2Traveller


Like THEY are accurate.

This is the most religious state of all, Utah, and our Exit polls did NOT say that we voted largely for Bush because of our religious values. I do believe it was largely because of our troops overseas, and what is best for them.

What I'm trying to say is if Democrats and Democratic-supporters want to win next time ( I am very religious, and I took a chance and voted for Kerry) they need to look at the real reasons they lost and STOP insulting religous people. Religious people think.

They need to not lose their minds, but look at the real issues, and maybe get over a little prejudice and start working with religious people. It's amazing the demographics of this election. It truly shows what the rest of America has always seen, that the snooty people, and those who look down on the religious people in the middle are exactly where we thought they were, lol.
See. I am not insulting religious people. Jeez. I am simply trying to say that (a) it's a fact that people voted for Bush because of his religious beliefs, which I think are on the extreme side (I'm not saying all people voted for him because of religion and I am certainly not insulting religious people, (b) I believe that some of Bush's policies are being influenced too much by religion, and to me that is wrong in a country that has a freedom of religion and YES a seperation of church and state. Stop twistiing my words.

I agree, I think Democrats do need to work with religious people more. This is a good point.

But the government should not fund them. there's a difference. I'm not saying GWB has done this, but his brother has in Florida: Jeb Bush has funded Christian Prisons across Florida. These are Christian based, religious prisons, where the prisoners are made to learn christian teachings, masses, and must read Christian material. This is fine. I think they should have religious based prisons, BUT Jeb BUsh should not be funding them!! No. That is a specific violation of seperation of church and state and I for one fear that this could happen elsewhere, and this could send a wrong message to the rest of the world.
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:53 AM   #145
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Originally posted by bcrt2000


I see what you're getting at... the people who look down on religious people are just as closed minded as the religious people who look down on others.. however I think what people are getting at here is that the religious voters who did vote for Bush, they cared more about imposing certain laws against gays, abortion, etc (which may or may not be valid) over the way he treats terrorism (all people involved in terrorist actions are inherently evil, they don't have any greivences, never been opressed, aren't others like them that are going to sprout up for the same reasons, its okay if innocent civilians die alongside a *supposed* threat, all countries under conservative muslim law need to be liberated one by one and all of the people in those countries want to be liberated).. there are religious Christians/Jews who voted for Kerry, and its probably because they valued rebuilding the economy/foreign policy that Kerry wanted over laws against gays/abortion because laws against gays/abortion do not directly affect them, however the economy and foreign policy do... its true religious people did vote Bush for other reasons (another major one would obviously be the Troops, and the fact that they like the way Bush handles terrorism)
I don't think religious people cared more for religious issues than Iraq, etc. I do believe very strongly they care very much for what's going on in the world, and it's just their latest tactic to insult and blame religious people, and it will backfire. You can vote for Kerry and vote for makine sure your state constitutions states that marriage is between and man and woman. I did. The point is...Kerry supporters could and did vote for these amendments, and Bush supporters didn't. That is NOT the issue and the reason that Bush won...period.

If you think so, you're missing the boat, and you'll lose next time because you're insulting religious people and because you're not fixing the real problems. Your loss may even get worse.
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:54 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by tackleberry


I agree, I think Democrats do need to work with religious people more. This is a good point.
actually, you know what I think is even more important? religious Christians/Jews working with the Muslim community, opening dialogues, etc... if anyone here is involved in a mosque/church/synagogue in their local community they should really bring this up with their community leaders because I really think this is critical to understand the ways of the middle east (and to understand that countries like Iran don't represent true Islamic Law... AND for muslims to integrate themselves more into western society WITHOUT losing their identity) and maybe to humanize the people on the other side a bit more so that we're not in a rush to go to war with these countries... and I think the same is true for the government, to get more involved, having better relations with muslim leaders, getting down to the core problems, etc
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:59 AM   #147
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actually, you know what I think is even more important? religious Christians/Jews working with the Muslim community, opening dialogues, etc... if anyone here is involved in a mosque/church/synagogue in their local community they should really bring this up with their community leaders because I really think this is critical to understand the ways of the middle east (and to understand that countries like Iran don't represent true Islamic Law... AND for muslims to integrate themselves more into western society WITHOUT losing their identity) and maybe to humanize the people on the other side a bit more so that we're not in a rush to go to war with these countries... and I think the same is true for the government, to get more involved, having better relations with muslim leaders, getting down to the core problems, etc
Well, I know that my religion works well with others, if they let us, if you know what I mean. In other words, we're not bigots, and we don't fight against other religions, but sometimes they fight against us.

Our church does a lot of good for these countries, inlcuding Africa.

I do not see where there's a problem here hating Muslims, etc. We do not think their religion is inferior. We do not think that's a reason to attack them. I do believe that we are truly only supporting a war on terrorism, most religious people, largely. There are always bigots who are religions and non-religious.

I believe religious people DO have the power and the real influence in this world. Even Bono has recognized that. And I do think we can and should do more.
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:03 AM   #148
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Originally posted by U2Traveller


Well, I know that my religion works well with others, if they let us, if you know what I mean. In other words, we're not bigots, and we don't fight against other religions, but sometimes they fight against us.

Our church does a lot of good for these countries, inlcuding Africa.

I do not see where there's a problem here hating Muslims, etc. We do not think their religion is inferior. We do not think that's a reason to attack them. I do believe that we are truly only supporting a war on terrorism, most religious people, largely. There are always bigots who are religions and non-religious.

I believe religious people DO have the power and the real influence in this world. Even Bono has recognized that. And I do think we can and should do more.
well i'm a muslim and the sense in the muslim community at large really is that right wing Americans don't understand Islam and they have a fear for it, which is why they approve pre-emptive attacking of other countries (which inturn breeds more terrorism unfortunately)... if the case is that most right wingers do understand Islam and Muslims, then there still needs to be that dialogue opened so that theres a mutual understanding between communities
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:05 AM   #149
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Originally posted by U2Traveller

I believe religious people DO have the power and the real influence in this world. Even Bono has recognized that. And I do think we can and should do more.
I just hope people like us don't forget the major part of religion... LOVE... its something that I think I didn't learn until post 9/11, and what really solidified this aspect of me really was the example of Bono, his lyrics and work for Africa
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:09 AM   #150
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Originally posted by bcrt2000


well i'm a muslim and the sense in the muslim community at large really is that right wing Americans don't understand Islam and they have a fear for it, which is why they approve pre-emptive attacking of other countries (which inturn breeds more terrorism unfortunately)... if the case is that most right wingers do understand Islam and Muslims, then there still needs to be that dialogue opened so that theres a mutual understanding between communities
Perhaps it would be helpful for the Muslim community to (i) educate the US public on the basic tenants of Islam (not the simplistic "we worship the same God" stuff, but the 5 pillars, etc.) and (ii) take a more vocal role against the militant elements of the Islamic faith.
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