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Old 09-20-2007, 07:00 AM   #31
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Originally posted by last unicorn


Well I can tell you that I was - and still am - outraged that my parents forced me to have my ears pierced as a young girl, it hurt like hell and I hardly ever wore earrings. Seriously, I don't remember being asked about that. Growing up, I hoped my holes would disappear or close, which they have almost done. So, yes, I'm against that as well. Parents do a lot of things to their kids just because THEY want it that way.


(Oh no, I just realized I might have a pierced ears trauma ...)
Fair enough.
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Old 09-20-2007, 08:22 AM   #32
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Irvine, do you really think that what's motivating most people (especially non-Jewish people) to get their boys circumsized? A fear of having to talk about penises? I can assure you that wasn't the case in my family.

And religious fervor? I can't speak for any other faiths but I don't think I know of a single Christian who thinks circumcision is some sort of requirement of the faith. I know it has NO religious connotations for me at all!

I think your strongest argument would be that people continue to circumsize out of a kind of blind sense of tradition and "Well, isn't that what you're SUPPOSED to do" and "Well, I want my son to look like me" and so on. I think THAT's what's motivating most people (and it's what would motivate me).

As to the loss of nerve endings. . .well, perhaps my sex life is a sad, empty shell of what might have been, but it sure doesn't seem that way. I know we've been through this before in an early thread, but I'll say again, that speaking as a circumsized man I've never felt marred or as if I was missing some vital thing. And I kind of resent people trying to convince me that I should feel that way.


i think, originally, circumsicision came out of victorian anti-sex mores, that if you removed the foreskin, then the boy would be less likely to masturbate. that's Western, though, can't say where it came from in the Jewish tradition.

i think parents cricumsize their boys because that's simply the cultural expectation. i spoke of religious ferver, but only insofar as it relates to this particular case -- it seems like the father is, indeed, in the grips of some religious ferver, and he's dragging his son along for the ride.

the whole "my son should look like me" argument feels a bit weird, since i can't recall ever having seen my father's penis, not even as a small child. and as for the sex life, well, i have noticed a difference between circumsized and uncircumsized men, and it's enough to tell me that i am missing out on something. of course it's not the most important part of sex, not at all, but again, why would you remove something that's *supposed* to be there?
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Old 09-20-2007, 10:11 AM   #33
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I think it's pretty much done out of tradition. I don't see the need for cutting...I'm cut and I'm not losing sleep over it, but if I'd had a son I wouldn't have had it done.

Also I have concerns about a 12 year old boy welcoming this. At 12 the last thing I wanted anywhere near my penis was a cutting tool of any kind; I wonder how he was "convinced" that this was a good idea?
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Old 09-20-2007, 12:02 PM   #34
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My view: Abuse and mutilation and using religion to excuse it and control girls.
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Old 09-20-2007, 12:15 PM   #35
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Originally posted by AnnRKeyintheUSA
My view: Abuse and mutilation and using religion to excuse it and control girls.


we're talking about boys in this situation.
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Old 09-20-2007, 12:26 PM   #36
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Oh, sorry. Not being a boy, I don't feel I have a right to completely judge this. IMO, what is done to boys is not nearly as painful or invasive or dangerous as what is done to girls, and though it had its origins in religious practices as well, is now done mainly for hygeine purposes. I will say as a woman, as far as sex and attraction goes, I prefer a man who has been 'done' to one who hasn't, if I'm allowed to say that.
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Old 09-20-2007, 02:48 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

and as for the sex life, well, i have noticed a difference between circumsized and uncircumsized men, and it's enough to tell me that i am missing out on something.
As a woman, I've noticed a difference, too. (in the men's experience, not mine, I mean).
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Old 09-20-2007, 03:29 PM   #38
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if the kid's 12 years old.....let him make the decision. I understand why the father wants it done due to the religious aspect, but when it all comes down to it....the kid is 12 YEARS old, and he's the one that has to live with it one way or another.

Either that or leave him be till he's 18, then it's 100% his decision.
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Old 09-20-2007, 03:45 PM   #39
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Originally posted by Irvine511




we're talking about boys in this situation.
And it is in principle equally a case of mutilating a defenceless child for bizzare social ends; I am glad that I don't live in a country that embraces such a practice (of course if I am ever in one as a minority should I expect affirmative action?).
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Old 09-20-2007, 04:09 PM   #40
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And it is in principle equally a case of mutilating a defenceless child for bizzare social ends
Yes it is. Of course comparing male circumcision to FGM is taboo in certain circles (here for example). But the comparisons are there:

Done for religious reasons - check
Done out of tradition - check
Unnecessary mutilation of a child - check
Reduces sensation, particularly during sex - check

While I understand there are aspects of FGM that are unique (specifically the way societies that practice FGM treat their women), others, like the way FGM is sometimes done (at home, no doctor, unsanitary conditions etc) are just a function of economics. If we as a nation still delivered our children at home without a doctor present we might well be home-circumcising too; as it is we're performing them as religious rituals with no doctor around.

Honestly I think it boils down to we circumcise, so it's OK. They practice FGM, so it's barbaric and wrong etc etc.
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Old 09-20-2007, 04:10 PM   #41
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Originally posted by Irvine511

that's Western, though, can't say where it came from in the Jewish tradition.
But it's not really Western so much as it is American because certainly in western Europe it's not a widespread phenomenon, nor in the UK. I have no idea about Australia, never having dated one of their men.
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Old 09-20-2007, 04:14 PM   #42
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^ From what A_W just wrote I'm guessing it's not a common practice in Australia either.
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Old 09-20-2007, 05:10 PM   #43
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(of course if I am ever in one as a minority should I expect affirmative action?).
no, just a curious look, and you can say something about how turtlenecks are surprisingly popular in Australia.
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Old 09-20-2007, 05:16 PM   #44
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But it's not really Western so much as it is American because certainly in western Europe it's not a widespread phenomenon, nor in the UK. I have no idea about Australia, never having dated one of their men.


[q][edit]Medical circumcision in the 19th century and early 20th century
There are several hypotheses to explain why infant circumcision was accepted in the United States about the year 1900. The success of the germ theory of disease made surgery safer, and made the public suspicious of dirt and bodily secretions, so circumcision was seen as good penile hygiene.[5] Some of the other possible reasons include because it was thought to be a way to discourage masturbation, [110] and to protect against syphilis.[111]
Infant circumcision was taken up in the United States, Australia and the English-speaking parts of Canada, South Africa and to a lesser extent in the United Kingdom and New Zealand. Although it is difficult to determine historical circumcision rates, one estimate[6] of infant circumcision rates in the United States holds that 30% of newborn American boys were being circumcised in 1900, 55% in 1925, and 72% in 1950.
[edit]Circumcision since 1950
In 1949, the United Kingdom's newly-formed National Health Service removed infant circumcision from its list of covered services. Since then, circumcision has been an out-of-pocket cost to parents, and the proportion of newborns circumcised in England and Wales has fallen to less than one percent. In Canada, individual provincial health services began delisting circumcision in the 1980s.
In South Korea, circumcision grew in popularity following the establishment of the United States trusteeship in 1945 and the spread of American influence. More than 90% of South Korean high school boys are now circumcised, but the average age of circumcision is 12 years.[112]
In some South African ethnic groups, circumcision has roots in several belief systems, and is performed most of the time on teenage boys.
A study in 1987 found that the prominent reasons for parents choosing circumcision were "concerns about the attitudes of peers and their sons' self concept in the future," rather than medical concerns.[7] A 2005 study speculated that increased recognition of the potential benefits may be responsible for an observed increase in the rate of neonatal circumcision in the USA between 1988 and 2000

[...]

According to the Sydney Morning Herald, the infant circumcision rate in Australia was 12.9% in 2003.[120]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision

[/q]
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Old 09-20-2007, 05:20 PM   #45
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no, just a curious look, and you can say something about how turtlenecks are surprisingly popular in Australia.
Blast, but who needs it with the accent advantage
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