religious conversions

[AcrobatMan]

What are your views of conversion or evangelism- trying to convert to their religion.

Also views of husband converting their wives to their religion or vice versa ?

AcroMan

 

[Lilly]

i've always been a bit leery of evangelism on a mass level (read: televangelism). missionary work and the like is also a little sketchy with me. i associate missionary work with what was done to the native americans here, to the natives in mexico and south america, and in africa. it always seemed like they were abusing Jesus and His word to get into their land and subsequently take the resources. televangelism works sort of in the same manner. it's shaming really that people will pay and pay and pay for things like "specially blessed prayer cloths." when Jesus is right there behind them. spreading the word of the gospel and taking advantage of people witht he gospel as your vehicle are two very, very separate things.


as for conversions for marriage...i've seen some very successful conversions made for marriage. i guess it's up to the individual. i could say that i would "convert" to a different form of Christianity, but not to other religions that just don't believe in Jesus. but, again, if they want to, there's nothing stopping them.

 

[speedracer]

What are your views of conversion or evangelism- trying to convert to their religion.

Um...be nice, don't lie and don't say anything you don't believe? I'm not sure what else to say.

missionary work and the like is also a little sketchy with me. i associate missionary work with what was done to the native americans here, to the natives in mexico and south america, and in africa. it always seemed like they were abusing Jesus and His word to get into their land and subsequently take the resources.

I don't know about comparing missionairies today to the conquistadores of old...

 

[U2Bama]

It seems that todays rules are that it is not cool to spread the gospel of Jesus, but it is okay to encourage people to convert to other religions. In some nations it is illegal to tell people why you believe in Jesus, even if they ask you.

If you do something to help the poor, don't do it via a church-related organization; instead, do it through some political group or a completely secular group, and you will be politically correct. Some people are even opposed to Habitat for Humanity because Jimmy Carter personally considers it a faith work.

~U2Alabama

 

[pax]

If you do something to help the poor, don't do it via a church-related organization; instead, do it through some political group or a completely secular group, and you will be politically correct.

Isn't that a little unfair, Bama? Almost any kind of community service I've ever done has either been through my church or through my college (which is a Catholic school), and even among my most liberal friends it's never been greeted by so much as an eyebrow raise. Even us evil liberals know that faith-based organizations (to use a Dubya term) can do a lot of good.

 

[Anthony]

More often than not, I am quite cynical of conversions.

I was raised in the Middle East, and it is certainly true of Kuwaiti and Saudi Arabian television that one of the very few programmes they indeed have in their 'English-speaking' channels, is a program that presents American and British women going on about how they were introduced to the glory of Allah and Islam, usually by their husbands. They talk about their experiences, their so-called epiphanies, and then go on to talk about why Allah is so much better than the God of the Catholic or Protestant or whatever denomination.

I must admit, I have always found this rather offensive, and grew to be quite cynical of people 'converting'. It has always been a concept I don't adhere to. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against people who change their ideas and perceptions about God, and their faith. And of course it is perfectly within their rights to choose a new religion out of their own free will. However, I have never seen the point of scrapping one religion for another.

The religion one is accostumed to is inherently the one they know best, if they should rebel against it, fair enough, but to scrap it and choose another one simply because it sounds better is a concept too strange for me. When I am asked of my religion, I reply curtly "I was raised as a Catholic, but I consider myself free of religion". I don't go on to say that Islam is better than Catholicism, or that Buddhism is better than Judaism. More often than not, in regard to the cases I mentioned to you, these women were FORCED to convert, it had nothing to do with them finding Allah a more merciful concept than the God of Abraham.

Parents with different religions or denominations should agree on what religion they will raise their children; like my father agreed to raise us Catholics, even though he is an athiest. No party should be forced to concede to the other religion, it should be an agreement made on the concept of mutual love and respect. Such conditions were not applied to these ladies I saw on the Islamic channels.

Ant.

 

[AcrobatMan]

agreement made on the concept of mutual love and respect.

The concept of "agreement" in "mutual love and respect" is rather new to me. I dont believe that anyone who loves would ever have his wife ( or her ) husband converted to his ( or hers ) religion. People has done lots of things for love and religious conversion is no big deal anyway . But love is rather strange word and people have all right to interpret in his or her way.

Regarding normal regilious conversion, I am not against conversion by anyone who makes that decision without any external influence.

But things starts getting confusion when "so called" social workers convert people by luring them , repeated trying to
tell them tales about how this God this and why ? If you are trying to help someone, dont bring the teachings in that. Simple as that. No force used but .. I think its wrong.. but

I just dont understand what kind of joy these people get when people convert to their religion. But its their life and if they are happy that way , let it be.


AcroMan

 

[Anthony]

AcrobatMan, though I do see and appreciate your point, everything we do is because of external influence, indirect or otherwise.

The very action of converting to another religion requires 'some' influence, by nature.

Ant.

 

[melon]

Isn't that a little unfair, Bama? Almost any kind of community service I've ever done has either been through my church or through my college (which is a Catholic school), and even among my most liberal friends it's never been greeted by so much as an eyebrow raise. Even us evil liberals know that faith-based organizations (to use a Dubya term) can do a lot of good.

The difference between Catholic organizations and some other Christian organizations has been the "conversion" factor. Catholic organizations don't actively try and convert those they help--it is pretty much fully secular in activity--and that's why many Catholic organizations were given public money even before Bush's "faith-based initiatives." My fear with the "faith-based initiatives" is that public funds will just be going to organizations whose service is only secondary to their primary goal: conversion. I certainly don't want my tax dollars indirectly going to pad Jerry Falwell's ministry of deception.

Melon

 

[U2Bama]

Isn't that a little unfair, Bama? Almost any kind of community service I've ever done has either been through my church or through my college (which is a Catholic school), and even among my most liberal friends it's never been greeted by so much as an eyebrow raise.

I do think it is unfair, but it is the truth, at least based on what I have heard in my life from people who are hostile religion, especially people who are hostile to mainline Protestant Christianity.

~U2Alabama

 

[Lilly]

Re: Re: religious conversions

I don't know about comparing missionairies today to the conquistadores of old...

my apologies for being unclear. my point was not to compare them, but just to say that i am a bit untrustworthy of the mass level evangelists. and i wouldn't just say conquistadores, because as much as spain had done it, englad matched, and continued to abuse it for a much longer period of time.

 

[speedracer]

The difference between Catholic organizations and some other Christian organizations has been the "conversion" factor. Catholic organizations don't actively try and convert those they help--it is pretty much fully secular in activity--and that's why many Catholic organizations were given public money even before Bush's "faith-based initiatives." My fear with the "faith-based initiatives" is that public funds will just be going to organizations whose service is only secondary to their primary goal: conversion. I certainly don't want my tax dollars indirectly going to pad Jerry Falwell's ministry of deception.

Melon

Melon,

I can understand your objections to public funding of charity works related to religious organizations you disagree with, but are you really opposed to the whole concept of missionary charity work?

Jesus was certainly much more than a doctor and a caterer to large banquets.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Basically, I don't mind if you talk about your religion with someone who is not of that religion. If you share what your religion believes with someone, and they like what they hear and decide of their own free will to join your religion, that I don't have a problem with.

I just hate it when people force their beliefs on someone and are all like, "You have to believe this, my religion is the right religion and you have to follow it" or when someone from one religion condemns someone who is not of their religion to hell or whatever for not following their religion, or when people try to "save" non-believers or Pagans or Wiccans or Satanists or whatever. It's like, look, you've got your beliefs, great, good for you, and I've respected yours, so please respect mine in return.

So basically, I don't like it when people convert someone to their religion, 'cause they're forcing their beliefs on someone who may not want to be a part of that religion and share those beliefs, and they don't leave the person alone about it.

That's a reason I'm not much for organized religion in general. I don't like what it can do to some people, what it can turn some people into. That's not the case with everyone who's a part of organized religion, no. But with some people...

Angela

 

[Danospano]

I don't listen to those proselytizing drones who honestly believe they on the path to glory. They used to annoy me, but I've learned to laugh.

 

[Zoomerang96]

i have two sets of aunts and uncles that are missionaries in foreign countries.

one of them lives is ghana.

they live with the people, and suffer with them. i cant tell you how many times theyve all gotten malaria.

they work with the people, and they dont shove it down there throats. you might be surprised as to how thrilled many of those people are to hear what my aunt and uncle have to say.

if people wish to think my aunt and uncle are evil, then maybe those same people can go back to the gap, and buy a comfy new sweater before going to mcdonalds for a nice hamburger for all i care.

people are so concerned of not stepping on someone elses toes that you arent supposed to tell anyone what you believed, but yet those same people ARE telling everyone else what they can and cannot say.

its rather disturbing.

but yes, ofcourse, i AM very skeptical of televangelists and the what not, but i do know first hand my aunt and uncle are NOT harming anyone or using them or anything.

thank you.

 

[AcrobatMan]

i have two sets of aunts and uncles that are missionaries in foreign countries.
one of them lives is ghana.
they live with the people, and suffer with them. i cant tell you how many times theyve all gotten malaria.
they work with the people, and they dont shove it down there throats. you might be surprised as to how thrilled many of those people are to hear what my aunt and uncle have to say.
if people wish to think my aunt and uncle are evil, then maybe those same people can go back to the gap, and buy a comfy new sweater before going to mcdonalds for a nice hamburger for all i care.
people are so concerned of not stepping on someone elses toes that you arent supposed to tell anyone what you believed, but yet those same people ARE telling everyone else what they can and cannot say.
its rather disturbing.
but yes, ofcourse, i AM very skeptical of televangelists and the what not, but i do know first hand my aunt and uncle are NOT harming anyone or using them or anything.
thank you.

deathbear,

The fact that you aunts suffered from malaria doesnot make her good or evil.

There are many types of religious fanaticism. Those sept 11 bastards killed themselves along with so many innocent civilians.
All in the name of religion.

See I am not against conversion per se.

If people absorb and thus prefer another religion, by all means, let them convert. My objection is to the deceptions used to attract the poor of poor countries ( like Ghana etc) . Many unethical methods have been used to 'save the souls' of these simple rural folk. .The people are told that the a particular God is more powerful than the other God..why this lie ? the ones coverted are promised free education and jobs. What sort of "soul-saving" is this?

 

[speedracer]

My objection is to the deceptions used to attract the poor of poor countries ( like Ghana etc) . Many unethical methods have been used to 'save the souls' of these simple rural folk. .The

Such as...?

 

[AcrobatMan]

Such as...?

1) telling them that one particular god is more powerful than other
2) luring them with money
3) luring them with education and job
4) luring them with incorrect stories

The fact is these people exploit the fact that they are uneducated and poor.

 

[speedracer]

1) telling them that one particular god is more powerful than other
2) luring them with money
3) luring them with education and job
4) luring them with incorrect stories

The fact is these people exploit the fact that they are uneducated and poor.

1) This sort of follows from the definition of religion.
2) Not bloody likely given the budget of most missionairies and their organizations.
3) Heaven forbid that missionairies should actually offer social services along with their evangelism, like those rotten Christian Aid relief workers in Afghanistan who were arrested by the Taliban.
4) Such as...?

I happen to know several folks who have gone on short-term missions trips, and none of them have ever (to my knowledge) done anything improper.

If you're going to make allegations like this, prove them.

 

[AcrobatMan]

1) This sort of follows from the definition of religion.
2) Not bloody likely given the budget of most missionairies and their organizations.
3) Heaven forbid that missionairies should actually offer social services along with their evangelism, like those rotten Christian Aid relief workers in Afghanistan who were arrested by the Taliban.
4) Such as...?

I happen to know several folks who have gone on short-term missions trips, and none of them have ever (to my knowledge) done anything improper.

If you're going to make allegations like this, prove them.

1) doesnot all religion say that all gods are equal.. ?

2) missionaries has enormous funding. what do you think is the budget of a missionary - ?100 or what ?

3) they offer social service at most places..as regard to taliban,
i am sure Taliban must have converted all those missionaries to
islam by force .taliban converts by force.. "most of missionaries" by luring.. the goal is same .the method is different. but i have severe reservations about the goal..whats the fun in converting someone..what does one achieve by it..why is religion so important when all it gives is a war(sep11 or like the war on afghanistan)..why this propagation ? whats the fun in making someone else believe what you believe. whats wrong in someone
else is a atheist or doesnot believe in anything thats hundred of thousand year old. Has anyone seen God ? Why shouldnt these peope be prosecuted under law for making statements which they cant prove scientifically ? See I may be harsh here.. but I have absolutely no problem with anyone following anything..I am not against conversions if people absorb other religion and prefer it. very well..fine..infact great

I am not against anyone believing anything non-scientific but i am against any teachings that are carried out with the intention of conversion and which cannot be proved scientifically.


4) there are too many to list ..they are basically examples of 1)

 

[speedracer]

1) doesnot all religion say that all gods are equal.. ?

No! If so, why bother convincing anyone else to believe what you believe?

2) missionaries has enormous funding. what do you think is the budget of a missionary - ?100 or what ?

Well, I know a bunch of college students who have gone on short-term missions trips, and if they had had the funding I think they would have found a place where they could take a hot shower every day instead of bribing converts.

3) they offer social service at most places..as regard to taliban,
i am sure Taliban must have converted all those missionaries to
islam by force .taliban converts by force.. "most of missionaries" by luring.. the goal is same .the method is different. but i have severe reservations about the goal..whats the fun in converting someone..what does one achieve by it..

Christians believe that eternal salvation comes only from Jesus. While it's possible that someone might be saved without knowing Jesus explicitly, why take that chance? Why shouldn't the church invest a significant portion of its time, money and energy in doing something that could make a difference in the eternal destiny of a lot of people?

why is religion so important when all it gives is a war(sep11 or like the war on afghanistan)..why this propagation ?

This is just ignorance. The vast majority of the 1 billion or so Muslims in the world condemned the attacks of 9/11.

The vast majority of Christians condemn the Crusades.

whats the fun in making someone else believe what you believe. whats wrong in someone
else is a atheist or doesnot believe in anything thats hundred of thousand year old.

See above.

Has anyone seen God ? Why shouldnt these peope be prosecuted under law for making statements which they cant prove scientifically ?

So it's okay for the Taliban to take over Afghanistan and impose Islamic martial law over the country, but Christian relief workers aren't allowed to spread the gospel by peaceful methods? Nice.

Now I'm going to make a bunch of statements which cannot be proven scientifically.

Cheating is wrong.

Stealing is wrong.

Murder is wrong.

Rape is wrong.

You should love your neighbor as yourself.

See I may be harsh here.. but I have absolutely no problem with anyone following anything..I am not against conversions if people absorb other religion and prefer it. very well..fine..infact great

If you haven't noticed, places like Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and China do not permit freedom of religion! No one is going to "absorb" any religion on their own in these places without the state's permission! That makes missionary endeavors in these places all the more important.

I am not against anyone believing anything non-scientific but i am against any teachings that are carried out with the intention of conversion and which cannot be proved scientifically.

If it's wrong for me to try to spread the gospel, it's equally wrong for you to tell me that it's wrong for me to spread the gospel, as deathbear so astutely pointed out earlier.

There can be no scientific proof that all truth can be proven scientifically.

4) there are too many to list ..they are basically examples of 1)

I didn't ask for a comprehensive list of examples of missionairies bribing or coercing people into believing anything. I asked for one or two examples. So far you have refused to prove that you are not bluffing.

 

[AcrobatMan]

Speedracer you still didnot get the point

1) The very fact that you think that your religion is better than somebody's else is wrong. A feeling of superioty is not a good thing to posses especially if its not proved. Not only it's wrong its not liberal thinking. Its a narrow minded thinking. Its not scientific. Noone is fooling anybody. You are just fooling yourself. I personally believe all religions are equal.

2) The question of taking hot bath or cold bath doesnot occur. the fact that your friends took cold bath or no bath doesnot make them great.

3) Well you can believe whatever you can.. You can believe earth is flat. I am fully for freedom of belief. What you believe should be none of my business. Things started getting confusing when you try to impose your belief. You try by hook or crook. You try by love , you try it by hate. The sole objective - to convert. to chase and pursue anyone who doesnot believe it to believe something that cannot be proved. Can you prove that Salvation comes only from Jesus ? No dear speedracer you cannot. You just do it for your own selfish satisfaction that you've converted. I dont know what kind of fun or satisfaction is that. But be assured, its pure selfish reasons rather than trying to do something good. If you want to do something non-selfish, why dont you do something secular.
Does hunger has a religion ? Poverty ? Water has religion? What about Blood ? If you can solve this problems without dragging in things you cannot prove, I appreciate that. If you cannot solve the problems , thats fair enough.

3a) I never said its okay for Taliban to take over Afghanistan and impose whatever. You dont understand the point. You are trying to avoid this issue. By saying that Mr X murdered 5 people and you only beat up 2 people, you are trying to justify your slapping of 2 people. I didnt know the level of logic & analogy would stoop to this low level.

All your bunch of "those statements" are correct as per my beliefs as well. There is a concensus in most of the world on that. Those things are independent of any religion and you dont necessarily have to follow a religion to not murder or not rape. Also there are laws in every country that would prosecute you if you are found guilty.
The bottomline you are trying to divert me to things that I have a consensus with you. The problem is ignored. You show me bigger problem to lessen the problem that exist.

The problem is in the mentality.

My intention is not to say things just for the sake of argument.
Speedracer, I just want you to think from an unbiased mind and not take anything thrown at you without a reason. I want you to be liberal in your think and broad-minded in your outlook.

Rather than saying God created the world and be dumb, try to study how the universe was created. No one knows everything everything about it. I dont know it myself but we should be in the right direction for the search of truth rather than saying " God created the world" and then trying to preach it.

AcrobatMan

 

[Spiral_Staircase]

My intention is not to say things just for the sake of argument.
Speedracer, I just want you to think from an unbiased mind and not take anything thrown at you without a reason. I want you to be liberal in your think and broad-minded in your outlook.

Rather than saying God created the world and be dumb, try to study how the universe was created. No one knows everything everything about it. I dont know it myself but we should be in the right direction for the search of truth rather than saying " God created the world" and then trying to preach it.

AcrobatMan, I'm curious to know why you're trying to convert Speedracer to your beliefs. Why do you want Speedracer to believe what you believe (that it's good to be liberal in your thinking and broad-minded in your outlook, to think from an unbiased mind)? Whats the fun in making someone else believe what you believe?

 

[speedracer]

Speedracer you still didnot get the point
1) The very fact that you think that your religion is better than somebody's else is wrong. A feeling of superioty is not a good thing to posses especially if its not proved. Not only it's wrong its not liberal thinking. Its a narrow minded thinking. Its not scientific. Noone is fooling anybody. You are just fooling yourself. I personally believe all religions are equal.

I ask you, what is your proof that all religions are equal?

Or your proof that all truth can be proven scientifically?

I am quite prepared to provide evidence for the truth of Christianity. Are you prepared to argue that all religions are equal? If so, I invite you to pm me or open a new thread.

And again, if it's wrong for me to argue my point, why is it okay for you to argue your point?

2) The question of taking hot bath or cold bath doesnot occur. the fact that your friends took cold bath or no bath doesnot make them great.

But it debunks your claim that missionairies have wads of cash with which to bribe converts, which was what I wanted to do.

3) Well you can believe whatever you can.. You can believe earth is flat. I am fully for freedom of belief. What you believe should be none of my business. Things started getting confusing when you try to impose your belief. You try by hook or crook. You try by love , you try it by hate. The sole objective - to convert. to chase and pursue anyone who doesnot believe it to believe something that cannot be proved. Can you prove that Salvation comes only from Jesus ? No dear speedracer you cannot. You just do it for your own selfish satisfaction that you've converted. I dont know what kind of fun or satisfaction is that. But be assured, its pure selfish reasons rather than trying to do something good. If you want to do something non-selfish, why dont you do something secular.

This is just spiteful. How do you know what my motives are?

Does hunger has a religion ? Poverty ? Water has religion? What about Blood ? If you can solve this problems without dragging in things you cannot prove, I appreciate that. If you cannot solve the problems , thats fair enough.

If Christians believe that this world is not all we get--that there is an afterlife that is infinitely more important than this present life--then it makes sense that Christian missionairies should devote at least *some* of their efforts to getting people to join them in the afterlife. If they refuse to believe, Christian relief workers will still continue to join with secular relief workers in tending to people's physical needs.

3a) I never said its okay for Taliban to take over Afghanistan and impose whatever. You dont understand the point. You are trying to avoid this issue. By saying that Mr X murdered 5 people and you only beat up 2 people, you are trying to justify your slapping of 2 people. I didnt know the level of logic & analogy would stoop to this low level.

The part about the Taliban was a straw-man argument; I just wanted to grill you for saying that "missionairies should be prosecuted by law." And you *did* say that.

And I don't know where I ever said that it was okay to kill people for the sake of my religion. I do believe that it is sometimes okay to kill people in defense, but that's another topic altogether.

You are willing to reject religion categorically because some people have committed atrocities in the name of their religion. Are you willing to reject government and the concept of nation-states altogether, and embrace anarchy? Governments are surely responsible for more crimes throughout history than religious movements are.

All your bunch of "those statements" are correct as per my beliefs as well. There is a concensus in most of the world on that. Those things are independent of any religion and you dont necessarily have to follow a religion to not murder or not rape. Also there are laws in every country that would prosecute you if you are found guilty.

My point was those statements have no basis in science, and yet everyone is willing to embrace them as true. This debunks your assertion that only what is scientifically provable should be considered to be true.

The bottomline you are trying to divert me to things that I have a consensus with you. The problem is ignored. You show me bigger problem to lessen the problem that exist.

The problem is in the mentality.

My intention is not to say things just for the sake of argument.
Speedracer, I just want you to think from an unbiased mind and not take anything thrown at you without a reason. I want you to be liberal in your think and broad-minded in your outlook.

Again, I have plenty of reasons for believing what I believe, and I'll be happy to share them with you via pm or in another thread.

Rather than saying God created the world and be dumb, try to study how the universe was created. No one knows everything everything about it. I dont know it myself but we should be in the right direction for the search of truth rather than saying " God created the world" and then trying to preach it.

I study the mathematics of string theory as my job. What is your profession?

Finally, you *still* have not documented any examples of unethical practices on the part of missionairies, and this seems to be rather crucial to your point.

 

[AcrobatMan]

Speedracer - Quite busy lately. You can have a look at my profile to know my profession.

Spiral - what belief i was trying to impose ? The only belief I was trying to impose was one should not impose or try to impose beliefs I am not sure if that counts as a belief.

AcrobatMan

 

[speedracer]

Speedracer - Quite busy lately. You can have a look at my profile to know my profession.

Software programmer, huh? Delicious.

Spiral - what belief i was trying to impose ? The only belief I was trying to impose was one should not impose or try to impose beliefs I am not sure if that counts as a belief.

Sure it does...at the very least you were trying to convince me that all religious beliefs are equally valid.

AcrobatMan

speedracer

 

[AcrobatMan]

Sure it does...at the very least you were trying to convince me that all religious beliefs are equally valid.

I said that "i personally believe all religions are equal". it is my personal opinion . And I didnt try to convice. You have all the right to disagree with it.

I didnt say all beliefs were equally valid.

There is a difference you know.

 

[Spiral_Staircase]

A-Man, this is what I was referring to:

Speedracer, I just want you to think from an unbiased mind and not take anything thrown at you without a reason. I want you to be liberal in your think and broad-minded in your outlook.

It appears that you believe it is good to think from an unbiased mind and not take anything thrown at you without reason. You seem to believe also that it's good to be liberal in one's thinking and broad-minded in outlook. You clearly state that you want Speedracer to believe these same things. Since this thread is about conversions, and convincing others to believe what you believe, I thought it would be appropriate to hear why you want speedracer to believe what you believe (e.g. that it is good to think from an unbiased mind and be broad-minded.)

 

[speedracer]

I said that "i personally believe all religions are equal". it is my personal opinion . And I didnt try to convice. You have all the right to disagree with it.

I didnt say all beliefs were equally valid.

There is a difference you know.

You did tell me that my belief that Christianity was better than any other religion was wrong.

But then again, you didn't provide any evidence for this claim, so I guess you weren't trying to "convince" me of anything, just trying to ASSERT it as the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

 

[AcrobatMan]

You did tell me that my belief that Christianity was better than any other religion was wrong.

Speedracer

Your belief is obviously wrong for the simple reason you dont know "all the other religions". And there is no point comparing any 2 religions.

But everything said and done, you have every right to believe what you want to believe.

AcrobatMan