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Old 06-15-2003, 07:09 PM   #91
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I am not of the belief that people who haven't heard the truth necessarily go to hell (they don't necessarily go to Heaven, either). The Bible implies that if you do not know right from wrong, then you are not held accountable. That is why children who are not old enough and do not understand the big issue of sin go to Heaven, as do mentally retarded people who have the same understanding issues. As for the perrson in some dark corner of teh world who has never heard the name "Jesus"? Well, the Bible tells us that this type of people have the law written on their hearts, and also that the truth is revealedin nature, and it seems to be implied that they are judged according to their response to what they do know of Christ.
Yes I read the whole post. And maybe I need some clarifications. Are you saying that they don't necessarily go to hell and they don't necessarily go to heaven until they are judged on their own account taking in consideration they may have never heard of Jesus? And if I'm right in understanding what you are saying then how about the man who grew up believing in God living his life for God loved his neighbor and was a good person but belonged to a different religion, not out of rejection of Jesus but because of where he grew up and his culture?
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Old 06-16-2003, 04:42 AM   #92
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Well, I believe that the onl;y way to the Father is through the Son, Jesus Christ. Why do I believe this? Because Christ said it himself. The whole point about Christianity that really sets it apart from other belief systems is that salvation is based on what God has done for man, not what man can do for God. In other words, one million prayers a day will not "get you to heaven". God is 100% holy and cannot abide in theh presence of sin, so it follows that his requirement for man's entrance into Heaven is nothing short of complete perfection. No sin can abide in Heaven, or it wouldn't be perfect. Man can never work his way into perfection. However, when a person becomes a Christian, the Bible tells us that all sins, past, present, and future are forgiven. Not only that, but Christians now have a new nature - the nature of Christ. The Holy Spirit lives within the Christian. The Christian now has a new life; the life of Christ. The Christian's spirit has been regenerated and is now clean. That's why it is acceptable to God, because it has had the righteousness of Christ bestowed upon it. The Christian is still able to sin with his flesh, but the Christian's spirit is absolutely perfect, and that is the part that goes to Heaven and receives a new glorified body. So, to answer your question - if a person knows the difference between right and wrong, he is held accountable for his sin. If he spends his whole life working hard at getting to Heaven, he will never make it, because man's "goodness" isn't good enough. It's not perfect. However, if that man accepts Christ, and is given a new nature and His spirit is regenerated, then his spirit is perfect and is acceptable for entrance into Heaven.
So...through one's own faith and belief system, if someone accepts there is God in their life, and asks for forgiveness, worships in their own way, accepts that all you say is indeed the 'right way', yet never sets foot inside a church, completely does away with the middle man so to speak, they in a roundabout way are still the 'Christian' that you have described? I'm not sure I've written this clearly enough, but basically, can someone become this but without the church? Is the church absolutely necessary to get you there in the end?
I think this is what Dreadsox was saying, please correct me if I'm wrong Dread. I've got many reservations about the church itself, and basically am curious as to whether you as the Christian that you are, or anyone else who cares to comment, think it is an absolute necessity in one's spiritual journey.
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Old 06-16-2003, 06:59 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem


So...through one's own faith and belief system, if someone accepts there is God in their life, and asks for forgiveness, worships in their own way, accepts that all you say is indeed the 'right way', yet never sets foot inside a church, completely does away with the middle man so to speak, they in a roundabout way are still the 'Christian' that you have described? I'm not sure I've written this clearly enough, but basically, can someone become this but without the church? Is the church absolutely necessary to get you there in the end?
I think this is what Dreadsox was saying, please correct me if I'm wrong Dread. I've got many reservations about the church itself, and basically am curious as to whether you as the Christian that you are, or anyone else who cares to comment, think it is an absolute necessity in one's spiritual journey.
I think that is part of what I am saying yes. I am taking a much more militant view of the gospel I think. I am saying that the Messiah came to free man from man-made laws that were put forward and held up as God's Law. I am also equating the modern Christian Church and its leaders as being modern day Pharisees. If the message of the church and its leaders is/has twisted the word of God it most definitely is not a necessary for mankind to reach heaven and be with our Father.
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Old 06-16-2003, 07:12 AM   #94
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The Pharisees, after all, were a master of the text and ignorant of the message behind it.

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Old 06-16-2003, 07:44 AM   #95
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Dread thanks for posting that. Its a little bit reassuring actually.
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Old 06-16-2003, 09:59 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
And if I'm right in understanding what you are saying then how about the man who grew up believing in God living his life for God loved his neighbor and was a good person but belonged to a different religion, not out of rejection of Jesus but because of where he grew up and his culture?
The key to this whole scenario is that the man never rejected Jesus. Now, if you have heard the Gospel, there are only 2 ways to respond:

1)Reject
2)Follow

So, this man never heard the Gospel.

I'm not God, of course, so I can't say for sure, but in line with what I believe, if this man never rejected Jesus, and yet lived his life for God, not out of obligation but for love of God, then that man would be allowed into Heaven.
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Old 06-16-2003, 10:04 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem


So...through one's own faith and belief system, if someone accepts there is God in their life, and asks for forgiveness, worships in their own way, accepts that all you say is indeed the 'right way', yet never sets foot inside a church, completely does away with the middle man so to speak, they in a roundabout way are still the 'Christian' that you have described? I'm not sure I've written this clearly enough, but basically, can someone become this but without the church? Is the church absolutely necessary to get you there in the end?
I've got many reservations about the church itself, and basically am curious as to whether you as the Christian that you are, or anyone else who cares to comment, think it is an absolute necessity in one's spiritual journey.
I think it is entirely possible to never set foot in a church and still be saved. Man's works and religious activities (or lack thereof) are not what saves him. It is completely by the grace of God. A man can go to church 85,000,000 times in his life and still not be saved. The point of Christianity is that it is only through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ that a man is saved. As Christ said, unless a man be reborn, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
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Old 06-16-2003, 10:23 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


I think that is part of what I am saying yes. I am taking a much more militant view of the gospel I think. I am saying that the Messiah came to free man from man-made laws that were put forward and held up as God's Law. I am also equating the modern Christian Church and its leaders as being modern day Pharisees. If the message of the church and its leaders is/has twisted the word of God it most definitely is not a necessary for mankind to reach heaven and be with our Father.
Dreadsox, I think you are partially right. Many of the laws that existed before Christ were man-made. They were strict regulations placed on the people to burden them. The Pharisees wore boxes on ropes around their necks to signify their "righteousness". The more boxes, the "more righteous" that priest was. Christ saw this for the self-righteousness that it was, and yes, when he came, he did away with many of them.

However, many of the laws were directly from God, and Christ didn't come to do away with those. The Bible says Christ came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Why did he come to fulfill it? Because he's the only one who could. Because of God's standard of "nthing less than perfectly Holy", man could not work his way into God's acceptance. In fact, the Bible tells us that the law's purpose was as a roadsign pointing the way to Christ. What this means is that when God created the law, he never had any notion that man could actually live up to the law. It was a representation of God's own holy nature, and was given to man so that man could TRY to live up to it, and fail, and thus realize that man can never live up to God's holy standard. That would pave the way the way fro Christ, the perfect God-Man, who fulfilled every single God-made law by never ever sinning. His death on the cross, his perfect blood shed for us, enables us to enter into a relationship with God, in which every man can rest in the assurance of His love, rather than toil under the law. When we accept Christ, we are forgiven all sins, past, present and future, and the Holy Spirit moves in, the sin nature is crucified, and the new nature (the nature of Christ) is created in us. We are partakers of the devine nature. We are given Christ's righteousness. So that bumper sticker taht says "Christian's aren't perfect, just forgiven"? It's not actually correct. The part of the Christian that is eternal - the spirit - is perfect; it was made that way when a person is reborn in Christ. This corrupt flesh is not eternal.
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Old 06-16-2003, 10:31 AM   #99
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Thats a good way to look at it I think, 80's. I think its pretty much my view on it all. To sidetrack into something more thinking out loud than anything else, I wonder if the knee jerk reaction by some toward Christians for aiming to share or spread what they know is misconstrued as 'recruiting' for the church. I guess it can be a little of both ways, some may have that misconception about those who are merely trying to show others what they have gained, while some may actually have an alternate agenda.
Anyways, I'm musing, I'll butt out of this thread now lol.
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Old 06-16-2003, 10:33 AM   #100
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*my above post was to your first reply to me, just to clarify, not the second.
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Old 06-16-2003, 11:14 AM   #101
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Quote:
The key to this whole scenario is that the man never rejected Jesus. Now, if you have heard the Gospel, there are only 2 ways to respond:

1)Reject
2)Follow

So, this man never heard the Gospel.

I'm not God, of course, so I can't say for sure, but in line with what I believe, if this man never rejected Jesus, and yet lived his life for God, not out of obligation but for love of God, then that man would be allowed into Heaven.
Thanks for the clarification...
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Old 06-16-2003, 01:39 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


The key to this whole scenario is that the man never rejected Jesus. Now, if you have heard the Gospel, there are only 2 ways to respond:

1)Reject
2)Follow

So, this man never heard the Gospel.

I'm not God, of course, so I can't say for sure, but in line with what I believe, if this man never rejected Jesus, and yet lived his life for God, not out of obligation but for love of God, then that man would be allowed into Heaven.
What if that person had never heard of God though? Or if they had heard only of a God which is very different from the God who you believe in.
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Old 06-16-2003, 02:15 PM   #103
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you hit it on the nail dreadsox! There are those who have not heard of god therefore they cannot be acountable. same way with a little child dieing in a car wreck. I believe its when you come to realize the truth that brings you into acountablility. I am very sorry christianity has been spoiled by many. I think about how holy i thought i was until i read about jesus. This guy was soooo great in every word he said. Many exremists have taken the words of jesus and desecrated them.
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Old 06-16-2003, 04:59 PM   #104
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


What if that person had never heard of God though? Or if they had heard only of a God which is very different from the God who you believe in.
Sorry Fizzing, but I've already answered that a couple of times. If a person has never heard the Gospel, I believe that God does not hold them accountable. It's not that person's fault. However, I do not think this is an automtic pass straight into the city of God, either. For instance, if someone spends his life in defiance of all that is good and holy, killing and raping, will God let him just because of the excuse "I never heard about God"? I don't think so.
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Old 06-16-2003, 05:16 PM   #105
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What I was curious about is that you said if a person "lived his life for God" which seemed to imply they would have to have some conception of a God even if not necessarily the God you believe in.

Sorry if I've misinterpreted your comments.
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