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Old 01-19-2006, 04:06 AM   #1
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Religious belief and Force

I was wondering today.

Suppose pick any random religious guy from anywhere.

What are the chances that somewhere down the line ( father, grand-father, great grandfather.......... last 100 generations) atleast one of the them were FORCED ( to avoid tax, death, risk of getting killed, or to get some other type of allurement) into a BELIEF that they now very proudly DISPLAY ?

This will exclude all guys that have accepted a religion without any force...and their ancestors have accepted religion without any force or pressure

I will reckon it should be more than 50%.


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Old 01-19-2006, 04:15 AM   #2
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By ancestry given the ammount of land that has at one stage or another been under conquest I think it would be close to 100%. Few people would have unbroken lineages of willing believers going back more than a few centuries.
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Old 01-19-2006, 05:47 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Few people would have unbroken lineages of willing believers going back more than a few centuries.
thats what I had thought !!


50% was being polite
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Old 01-19-2006, 12:21 PM   #4
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I doubt it's possible for pretty much anyone to go back 100 generations and find any trace of the same belief structure, regardless of force.

I only know my family lineage as far back as the 1600s, from the Netherlands (Groningen), practicing the same religion we do here now (Dutch Protestantism/CRC), or whatever the equivalent would be.
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Old 01-19-2006, 12:31 PM   #5
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I don't think it's anything like 100%.

When Christianity first arrived in Ireland for example I do not think forceful conversions were a large feature. People initially practised a kind of syncretic mix between Christian and pagan beliefs.

Problems arose much later when the British governing authority attempted to impose Protestantism - however these attempts were not particularly successful and the vast bulk of the peasantry stayed Catholic although practising their religion in secret if necessary.

People choose their religion or convert to other religions for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes the reasons are pragmatic - like a Catholic landowner converting to Protestantism in the Ireland of the 18th Century to curry favor with the authorities. But that isn't a forcible conversion, as such.

It's simplistic to think all conversions in history were forcible.
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Old 01-19-2006, 01:35 PM   #6
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There's also cases where a couple of differing religions get married and one spouse converts to the religion of the other.
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Old 01-19-2006, 01:39 PM   #7
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I don't really get why it matters.
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Old 01-19-2006, 02:48 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
I don't really get why it matters.
Some things are just interesting to ponder. If you think about it very few of our discussions here (or anywhere) really matter either. Sometimes it's just something to do.
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Old 01-19-2006, 04:44 PM   #9
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You could expand the idea to "how many beliefs (religious and secular) are imposed on a society through some method of force (physical, psychological, financial, etc.)?"
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Old 01-19-2006, 11:51 PM   #10
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LivLuvAndBootlegMusic - we cant definitely not trace back...but I am just wondering


financeguy - I am not talking about Christanity in particular.. there are 100s of religions... and % would vary according to it.

"all conversions in history were forcible"
i am not telling that..just what % of present day people will have atleast 1 forceful conversion somewhere in their lineage

Bono's shades - if the spouse has converted for the sole purpose of marriage ..I will consider that an allurement !! I know of a guy converting to Muslim just to have 2 wives simulataneously. One of my friends father got converted to Christanity just before marriage..I asked why ? He said " that was the only way possible marriage was possible". I said they could have done CIVIL marriage...He didnt have any proper answer for it... I dont see a reason why marriage should mean ..one of them has to convert..

yolland - nothing matters

NBC - any examples of secular belief .. i dont think secular belief are imposed...because religious belief are imposed by priests,pandits or imams....anyway....the point was a belief based on forces during any one of the previous serveral generations and continuity of it . Even if a secular belief is enforced ( i still cant think of any examples)..i am sure the next generation will get rid of it automatically...same cant be told for religious belief
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Old 01-20-2006, 12:46 AM   #11
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I'm not sure I made it clear in my post about spouses converting, but I meant it as an add-on to what financeguy was saying about non-forced conversion.
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Old 01-20-2006, 01:32 AM   #12
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I re-read the original post and then I pondered what I've learned in various church history and theology classes and I'm pretty much convinced that your conversion theory is at or so near 100% the difference is not significant.

However, individually examining 100 generations back is probably close to 0% possible for any normal person so that doesn't leave much to discuss.
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