Religion or Law? Which holds more authority to you?

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

Angela Harlem

Jesus Online
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Messages
30,163
Location
a glass castle
Ok, take a deep breath. No, take 2. We know where this is going to end up, but I am asking Christians perhaps moreso than others which is more of an authority to you, and why?

Now, someone sooner or later is going to comment that our laws are based on some religious principles anyway, and there might not be that much of a difference. But is there? I know we here, for example, have strict (but difficult to enforce) equality laws which do not allow the legal exclusion of anyone under any circumstances unless it falls into one or two exceptions where it can be argued if it is actually discrimination. But anyway. Is this the same in other places? Here is one area where religion and law clash, and I wonder why we let it go on. A conservative Christian asked me recently why the gay and lesbian community haven't taken the clergy to court, and it got me wondering. I've got no idea why. And before anyone says those in charge wont allow it to happen because their own beliefs are perhaps conservative as well, tell me why it is so often ignored if it is already written in law?
 
law holds much more authority over me.

however, when it comes to how i live my life and how i treat other people, i do so according to the morals and ethics that i have acquired over my lifetime -- there are none that come from religion that haven't been extensively mediated and qualified by experience (i trust experience more than i trust any words written on any page), and if i were to find a law that were ethically and morally objectionable, then i would not follow that law or work to have it changed.

basically, the law is more authoritative, but because it requires the consent of the governed, it is more elastic and malleable. religion -- for lack of a better word -- might ultimately be from a higher authority, but it cannot have practical authority on due to its subjective nature, yet it might hold higher "moral authority" on the individual.

convoluded, i know ...
 
Hmm, I;d like to see more responses in this thread, honestly.....



As for myself, I am my judge of write and wrong. OUtside influences, my exposure to religions, some I agree partially with, some I don't, and my exposure to the laws I see. Ultimately, it comes down to me, and me being honest with myself. In a way, I think I follow my own religion, so to say, so I'd say that "religion" over an outside law. But then again, and outside religion would be no different. And you could substitute, in my case "laws" or "religion" - as in, ""i have my own laws/religion that I follow"". So really, I guess it's sort of not applicable when it comes to me.


But......

"A conservative Christian asked me recently why the gay and lesbian community haven't taken the clergy to court, and it got me wondering"

- that's an interesting idea
 
Se7en said:
law.

while the thought of eternal damnation is slightly unsettling, god won't throw me in jail for urinating in public.

:lol:


Law holds more authority for me because we have the ability, if we use it, to change unjust law. We have a checks and balances system. We know who made the laws, if not all the lobbyists and other outside interests that influence them. We can defend ourselves. We elect the people who make the laws. We have given them authority and we can take it away from them.

Do I obey every law? No. Would my conscience require me to disobey some laws? Yes. I am increasingly doubtful about the lawmakers and the courts. But I accept their authority and would accept the consequences for any civil (or other) disobedience on my part.

But I could see a day possibly coming when I could have so little respect for my leaders, my lawmakers and my courts that I would cede them no moral authority over me although I would probably obey most of their laws so as not to inconvenience myself over matters that did not affect my conscience.

I could lightly say that religion holds no authority over me, but that would be wrong. I'm not afraid of a concept of hell; I'm not holding out for reward in a concept of heaven. But I give some teachings moral authority, a good deal of moral authority for somebody who does not practice a religion or consider myself spiritual.

But as I think Irvine implied, I give my own ethical compass (based on what I've learned, experienced, observed and felt)
the most authority.
 
Angela Harlem said:
Interesting replies. I like yours, B's S.
Interesting lack of replies, as well.
:hmm:


Thank you. It was an interesting question I couldn't answer immediately. I had to go and think about it. You do make me think, Angela Harlem. I'm sorry you didn't get more responses.
I don't think FYM does philosophical well for the most part.
 
Without sounding like this is sour grapes, I reckon people either generally dont really give a shit (and I reckon in the US you have different laws anyway, which I based a fair portion of my musing on) or perhaps that people are expecting me to argue irrationally again, as I er..tend to do with organised religions.
The conservative Christian I mentioned was the guy I had a huge discussion with on this, and I want to hear more perspectives. We got to an impasse, and he said he needed more time to think, like I need to go and find out why in relation to his question to me. My problem here is gay rights bug me (lack of rights, at least) more than anything a religious viewpoint could put forward.

Ah well. Thank you, though. I really enjoy reading your thoughts so it tickles me pink that you said you got to some thinking! :D It reminds of the time we started venturing onto thought vs language and which came first, lol. I'd still like to have that out with FYM one day.
:)
 
thought v language........ yeah, I;d like to ssee things like that myself.....

let me know if such ever comes around.....
or where I can find such

heh..
 
We tried, For Honor. We really tried. But now that we have a triad interested here. Maybe. Maybe we ought to start a philosophical/theoretic forum. But I don't think they want to add another one.
 
My religion holds more authority over my personal conduct. It's much more demanding and strict than law, with more serious consequences, both good and bad.

I uphold the laws of my country, however. As a teacher, I'm sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States, which I personally view as a Divinely inspired, incredible elastic document.

As a postscript, let me add that I would never ever in a million long years assume that others were bound to follow the rules of my religion just because I hold them to higher authority than law. I do, however, expect the citizens of, and visitors to, my country to follow the laws of my country, even if their religion conflicts with the law.
 
Last edited:
I didn't reply sooner 'cause I was thinking about this one, too. But upon reading this thread through, I'd have to say that BonosSaint's post is pretty spot on-that'd probably be what I'd say, too :up:.

I hope more people do reply, too-maybe they're thinking of ways to explain it like some of us were :).

Angela
 
law. but this is likely not particularly engaging for you as i could not, in any way, self-identify as a religious person. i do, however, consider myself to be moral and ethical and do not debate that those attributes are certainly educated by the society, and its virtues, in which we live. and, without a doubt, one of the greatest influences on the virtues of a society will be the dominant religions to which its inhabitants subscribe.

having said that, i do find the question interesting as an individual involved in the creation, enforcement and defense of laws. to see anything other than the law as being 'supreme' in the operationalization of a jurisdiction is an intriguing, and perhaps, unsettling notion.
 
Religion. It pretty much encompasses law, but goes above and beyond that. There are many things that are legal that I still won't do based on religion. I can't really think of something that's illegal that I would do because of religion (well, here in a free country at least).
 
Law. I consider myself a spiritual person, but "religion" to me is a construct made by humans that tries to co-opt the divine into legislating behaviour. Whereas law is generally agreed upon by those governed (in principle anyways).
 
sulawesigirl4 said:
Law. I consider myself a spiritual person, but "religion" to me is a construct made by humans that tries to co-opt the divine into legislating behaviour. Whereas law is generally agreed upon by those governed (in principle anyways).

What she said^

:up:
 
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:
Religion. It pretty much encompasses law, but goes above and beyond that. There are many things that are legal that I still won't do based on religion. I can't really think of something that's illegal that I would do because of religion (well, here in a free country at least).

:up:
 
I just got in and saw this thread. I'm going to say law as well. While I do have religious beliefs (practicing Catholic) law is what I'm judged in right now. My religion teaches me that I'll be judged, too, and that means alot to me, but it's not right now. I'm going to be judged in my religion for my whole life. I'm judged by my actions by the law *right now*. If I drive drunk right now, I'll get busted (and rightfully so, I don't dispute that). I guess I can say that I pay more attention to law right now. That doesn't mean I don't pay attention to the teachings of my religion at all. I'm going to be judged in that, also. But I think law is a more pressing concern for me.
 
martha said:
My religion holds more authority over my personal conduct. It's much more demanding and strict than law, with more serious consequences, both good and bad.

I uphold the laws of my country, however. As a teacher, I'm sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States, which I personally view as a Divinely inspired, incredible elastic document.

As a postscript, let me add that I would never ever in a million long years assume that others were bound to follow the rules of my religion just because I hold them to higher authority than law. I do, however, expect the citizens of, and visitors to, my country to follow the laws of my country, even if their religion conflicts with the law.

Excellent. I agree completely and this basically sums it up for me. Except that I'm not a teacher. :wink:
 
In order:
1. Freedom of your choice of Faith.
2. The Law.
3. "Religion", the human interpretation.
 
BonosSaint said:
How about it, Angela Harlem? Worth another shot?

For sure! You know I'm always up for some longwinded ramble which makes little sense! :D

nbcrusader said:
Ultimately, all authority comes from God.

What do you do if your religious perspective clashed with a law? It seems to somehow not happen so much over your way, but from what I can tell, it does here. I have to look more into this, but it's got me wondering.
 
The question is flawed. Law can be broken down into certain legal and illegal terms within a country with little debate (one cannot say "I believe that is an illegal law, so I will not obey it" without punishment, such as paying taxes), while the moral issues that Religions bring up can be classified as moral/immoral with little repercussions (at least that can be felt in the now...let me know how it turns out when 'you' die).

Law obviously holds more authority over people because it can be inforced by people, unless you live in a country where the Religion is the law.
 
Back
Top Bottom