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Old 11-10-2004, 09:25 AM   #16
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Originally posted by indigo tree
People have an extraordinary talent for taking anything originally intended for good and bastardizing it. It what we're good at.

this strikes me as exactly what people have done to God -- created a religion around it, and then used that structure (enforced by human-created projects of the almight) to enforce rigid forms of social control. religion strikes me as the absence of god. it's not necessarily a negative thing, and religion can provide a desperately needed sense of community especially in countries like the US with the isolation of the suburbs and exurbs combined with a punishing work week and brutal commutes.

however, with the way that organized religion is making its presence felt on a geo-political level, it seems as if the best reaction is one of skepticism, if not outright resistence.
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Old 11-10-2004, 09:36 AM   #17
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this strikes me as exactly what people have done to God -- created a religion around it, and then used that structure (enforced by human-created projects of the almight) to enforce rigid forms of social control. religion strikes me as the absence of god.
We need to be careful with blanket statements about religion, as such a rejection of "religion" can simply lead to the individual creating their own belief set about God - leading to similar results.
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Old 11-10-2004, 09:43 AM   #18
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It's time to call this mind set what it is: Darwinism.

Survival of the fittest is not a "christian concept," therefore anybody who embraces it is not practicing Christianity. Survival of the fittest is an athiestic concept and there is only ONE degree of seperation between Darwin and Hitler (a man named Neitzche, who expounded so eloquently the idea of a super man, prompting Hitler's super race concept.) Stalin was also not a religious man. To say that human nature is corrupt does not disprove the "religious" worldview and to say that men use religion to further their own natural corruption also does not tarnish religion's claims. I know most of the "God talk" on this board is purely emotional and very little actual objective or free thought enters into the equation now that it's become so trendy to trash religious people, but there are many great believers throughout our own nation's history...Lincoln, Washington, etc. Religion did in their cases what it actually does when men actually let it do it's work in their hearts, instead of trying to manipulate it to their own ends. Another case in point relevant to THIS board: Bono. A believer in God and a believer in the Bible. Has it turned him into a vile person? This half-baked theory of religion as the cause of all ills is easily done away with with just a few examples. The film "To End All Wars"(and the true story behind it) is also a great example of belief in God (or religion) giving dignity to humanity in the face of the inhuman.

To all atheists here I'll say this. The Christian belief in freewill gives me a healthy respect for your right to believe whatever you want. I am able to be "tolerant" of your decision not to believe in God while not having to accept it as the most rational conclusion to come to in the face of a big banged universe (big bang = cosmic virgin birth) and absolutely NO evidence of spontaneous life emerging from the random combination of lifeless particles. That worldview takes too much faith for ME to believe in, though you are welcome to it. However, conceeding as you do, the existence of any objective moral law (as any morality we have has simply evolved in us subjectively as a society) you have no grounds to feign dismay over muslims flying planes into buildings and christians retaking Jerusalem a thousand years ago. You also have no grounds to say the president SHOULDN'T force his beliefs down your throat, since survival of the fittest says the fittest basically can do whatever the hell they want. Your moral objection to this actuallly proves the religious worldview and the atheist worldview eats itself in the process. So please don't try to shove your own beliefs down my throat because of all worldviews the atheist's is the least objectively credible and takes the most amount of faith. In short, the LAST argument an athiest should make against religion's claims is a MORAL objection, since this argument is so self-defeating and, in the process of using it, the athiest actually proves the theist's point. The emperor isn't wearing any clothes at this point and many eyes see it, even if the emperor himself does not.
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Old 11-10-2004, 10:03 AM   #19
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


We need to be careful with blanket statements about religion, as such a rejection of "religion" can simply lead to the individual creating their own belief set about God - leading to similar results.

actually, i think a rejection of organized religion would do much to improve life for most people on earth, and it is precisely the concrete interpretation of any organized religion, and the subjugation of individual conscience to the will of man-made rules and regulations, that leads to much sadness in the world.

perhaps rejection is too strong. caution and skepticism are probably better. i can really only speak as an american, and while i respect those who draw strength from belief in a higher power (let's call that faith), i am unnerved by how many churches motivated and pamphleted their masses (calling into question their tax-free status) and how the current administration has intrepreted the election results as a mandate for a specific kind of moral values.
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Old 11-10-2004, 10:34 AM   #20
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hmm just out of personal interest do you think the tide is turning and that people around the world seem to be wanting rid of organized religion christianity muslim whatever.. in general and it has lost the grip it had on people like say compared 100 years ago

can you see religion playing an even less significant roll in the future and people distancing themselves from it even more?

Do you ever think there will be a day when people will just say we don't need religion and want to do away with it completely
is that the direction it is heading now?
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Old 11-10-2004, 11:25 AM   #21
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Its sad that organized religion gets dragged through the mud like this. While Im sure there are many that are misrepresenting the Christian and Muslim faiths, they do not represent the majority of peace loving folks out there. The negative will always recieve more attention from the press, and it always has, not only with religious issues, but in almost every aspect of our culture.
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Old 11-10-2004, 11:31 AM   #22
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


I'm really not amused with all the "religion = violence" threads lately. Please. Violent fundamentalists are DERANGED, that's what they are, regardless of what "religious" mask they choose to hide behind.
Agreed.
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Old 11-10-2004, 02:09 PM   #23
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Originally posted by luvvinu2
hmm just out of personal interest do you think the tide is turning and that people around the world seem to be wanting rid of organized religion christianity muslim whatever.. in general and it has lost the grip it had on people like say compared 100 years ago

can you see religion playing an even less significant roll in the future and people distancing themselves from it even more?

Do you ever think there will be a day when people will just say we don't need religion and want to do away with it completely
is that the direction it is heading now?

i think it's splintering in two directions. what we see in the US and much of Europe is the gradual secularization of society, while in parts of SE Asia and the Muslim World we're seeing a much more radical brand of Islam embraced as traditional structures that keep societies mended together are disintegrating. in the US, i think we see this as well as traditional communites disintegrate and people move to the exurbs with it's vast track housing, SUVs, and box-shaped malls, there's a need for connection and order and meaning and purpose that religion does a good job delivering. no, we don't yet see the same kind of fanatacism in churches in the US that you see in mosques in the middle east (and even London), but there's little question that these churches have politicized themselves very effectively over the past 10 years.
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Old 11-10-2004, 02:35 PM   #24
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Originally posted by iota
It's time to call this mind set what it is: Darwinism.

Survival of the fittest is not a "christian concept," therefore anybody who embraces it is not practicing Christianity.
I believe in evolution and I consider myself a practicing Christian. I always turn the other cheek, I try as hard as I can to forgive others, basically I follow the golden rule as much as possible. The bible is open to interpretation, loose or strict. I interpret it VERY loosely, because it has so many faults. It also contradicts itself throughout, therefore I find it difficult to follow it strictly.

There's extremists in every type of organization, they just stand out more in religious senses.
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Old 11-10-2004, 02:35 PM   #25
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You also have no grounds to say the president SHOULDN'T force his beliefs down your throat, since survival of the fittest says the fittest basically can do whatever the hell they want.
Red in tooth and claw I see. "Darwinism" is not a religion, I do not place faith in such things, it does not tell me how to live my life it is a theory that explains observations about biology. Social Darwinism, the concept of inferior humans and genetic poverty was flawed - that was not science it was institutionalised excuses for poverty. To even give Darwin and Hitler one degree of seperation is totally fucked up (I think that the entrenched anti-Semitism has more than a little to do with Christianity than Darwinism - those Pogroms were not held to weed out those genetically inferior rather the killers of Christ). Genetically Homo Sapiens are more or less identical, same potential at birth.

One can express doubts about the Big Bang theory on the basis of evidence. Science does not pluck idea's put of thin air. It is a very good explaination for the apparent expansion of the universe, as shown by the redshifting of distant objects and the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation. Consider the Miller experiment, with that we were able to create basic organic molecules in early earth. The building blocks of life can be created in an abiotic environment. Now also consider that the universe has an obscenely large volume and that there must be many, many planets that have the suitable conditions, then consider the timescale of the universe is measured in billions of years and consider that billions of chemical reactions go on those planets suface every instant. The permutations that lead to self replicating molecules may be vastly insignificant - however when the conditions are repeated trillions of times they do arise. Science is not an article of faith, to assume so much displays an arrogance about individual belief and an ignorance of scientific investigation.

Here is an atheist argument; there has never been indisputable evidence of God therefore there is no God.
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Old 11-10-2004, 02:42 PM   #26
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lHere is an atheist argument; there has never been indisputable evidence of God therefore there is no God.
First of all let me say this is not meant as an argument with you, I respect your belief.

But that's why "faith" is involved in Christianity. Is there indisputable evidence of there not being a God?
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Old 11-10-2004, 02:45 PM   #27
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I think the people who misinterpret the bible and "become" radicals had an agenda ahead of time. It's dangerous to take scripture out of context. With that said, I don't think it's right to interpret it too loosely because it's creating God in your own image. Certain things are difficult to interpret in the bible when you try to relate them to our modern society. But look at the 10 Commandments - they're very direct.

Some people look for the bible's most ferocious moments as a line of defense for living the wrong life. Others claim Christain when you can't tell them apart from atheists.
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Old 11-10-2004, 02:46 PM   #28
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Originally posted by U2democrat


First of all let me say this is not meant as an argument with you, I respect your belief.

But that's why "faith" is involved in Christianity. Is there indisputable evidence of there not being a God?
Well, you know what G.K. Chesterton and Brennan Manning said.
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Old 11-10-2004, 02:48 PM   #29
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Well, you know what G.K. Chesterton and Brennan Manning said.
No, I don't.....
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Old 11-10-2004, 04:11 PM   #30
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Originally posted by U2democrat


No, I don't.....
G.K. Chesterton was a rather witty British writer who was Catholic. He once wryly remarked, "the only good argument against Christianity is Christians."

The album recording of DC Talk's "What If I Stumble?" begins with Brennan Manning saying "the greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."
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