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Old 05-28-2005, 08:43 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




you said it yourself: two wrongs don't make a right.

also: who cares? what does this have to do with anything? you've proved that certain gay people are no better or no worse than anyone else? is this supposed to be a revelation? why can't you make a point without stooping to degredate a culture? is it because you have no argument other than "gay people aren't perfect"?
What culture did I degredate, Irvine? If I had said that I think that the entire homosexual culture is like those in the PBS documentary, that would be degredating a culture. Did you miss the times I said that I don't think that all gays are like that and that the reason I posted this was because I was tired of you and melon always slamming on conservative Christians, painting us all with the brush of prejudice? As I said before, I wanted to show that homosexuals can be guilty of prejudice also; no one would know it if they only listened to you two.

But you see that's the difference, right there. I didn't paint all homosexuals with a brush, just thoat particular group involved in the "Flag Wars" injustice. But you and Melon are constantly, and I do mean constantly painting all conservative Christians with the brush of prejudice.
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Old 05-28-2005, 08:50 PM   #77
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Not with me, it hasn't. What Melon intended was to get Christians upset about the original topic, Religion As A Mental Illness. That didn't upset me greatly, because I give no creedence whatsoever to the idea. What I responded to was his incessant painting of conservative Christians as prejudicial jerks.
And?

You think other people don't get upset when all gays are painted as preverted, youth recruiting, threat-to-traditional-values freaks trying to destroy ... I don't know what they are supposed to be destroying this week but I'm sure it will be a social catastrophe of apocolytic proportions in the minds of some, who will more than likely include a certain number of conservative Christians.

I think somewhere earlier in this thread I dropped the phrase "fighting fire with fire". I believe Melon was trying to make a point about devaluing people. If you are not one of the people prone to the behavior outlined in the previous paragraph, I don't think you really need to be upset here.

But then again, it's your right to get hot under the collar if you like; I only hope that you consider walking in someone else shoes, trying to understand what they are doing and why.

I understand why Melon posted this thread; I've already stated my doubts that this would get results re. the double standard....
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Old 05-28-2005, 09:01 PM   #78
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Originally posted by echo0001


And?

You think other people don't get upset when all gays are painted as preverted, youth recruiting, threat-to-traditional-values freaks trying to destroy ... I don't know what they are supposed to be destroying this week but I'm sure it will be a social catastrophe of apocolytic proportions in the minds of some, who will more than likely include a certain number of conservative Christians.

I think somewhere earlier in this thread I dropped the phrase "fighting fire with fire". I believe Melon was trying to make a point about devaluing people. If you are not one of the people prone to the behavior outlined in the previous paragraph, I don't think you really need to be upset here.

But then again, it's your right to get hot under the collar if you like; I only hope that you consider walking in someone else shoes, trying to understand what they are doing and why.

I understand why Melon posted this thread; I've already stated my doubts that this would get results re. the double standard....
You miss my point, entirely echo - entirely.

I brought up Flag Wars not as a response to the original point of this thread, but as a response to something he said later in the thread and the many many times he has lumped all conservative Christians in the "prejudiced" group.

I have always been much more respectful of homosexuals than melon and Irvine have been of conservative Christians. I have said that I thought homosexuality was wrong, and that's it. They go off on rants about how evil and prejudiced conservative Christianity is and are often very insulting about it. If you can find times that I called homosexuals prejudicial, backwoods, hateful, evil demons from hell, please feel free to post it here. Don't bother looking; I never have. But that's the kind of thing they love to throw out there about conservative Christians. Meanwhile, people are jumping on my back for discussing one particular group of homosexuals.

Quite frankly, I'm a little sick and tired of it.
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Old 05-28-2005, 09:04 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Not with me, it hasn't. What Melon intended was to get Christians upset about the original topic, Religion As A Mental Illness. That didn't upset me greatly, because I give no creedence whatsoever to the idea. What I responded to was his incessant painting of conservative Christians as prejudicial jerks.
Individual conservative Christians may not be jerks, but look at the institutions they have created and the hatred they have sown in government!

"Big bad homosexuals" have no power to hurt Christianity. Period. It's constitutionally protected. However, "big bad Christianity" can and does on a regular basis try to eradicate homosexuality. Isn't that their main goal in life these days? No wonder I have no respect for it anymore.

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Old 05-28-2005, 09:13 PM   #80
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I'm bowing out now. Honestly, I'm too upset about this conversation (I know what you're thinking: "80s hides his anger so well"). When you get as upset as I am right now, it's best to step aside and cool off. It's obvious that this will only get worse and worse as it goes.
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Old 05-28-2005, 09:17 PM   #81
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Originally posted by BonosSaint
Sorry to take this thread beyond your original scope, Melon. But your source did reference Dostoevsky who was a wonderful writer. And there is as much theory or more on the "insanity" of artists. And many of us are grateful for that "insanity."
And I know that "insanity" all too well. There were many years where I was not well, mentally, and while I cannot say that I went as far as having daytime hallucinations, I had enough dreams in those years to write a book. On top of it, after taking a personality test years ago, I fit the personality profile of a "Healer Idealist," which is the personality type thought to exist with "prophets," etc.

As such, I've always felt in tune with the spiritual side of things. Maybe someday, I'll write that book after all.

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Old 05-28-2005, 09:19 PM   #82
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


You miss my point, entirely echo - entirely.

I brought up Flag Wars not as a response to the original point of this thread, but as a response to something he said later in the thread and the many many times he has lumped all conservative Christians in the "prejudiced" group.

I have always been much more respectful of homosexuals than melon and Irvine have been of conservative Christians. I have said that I thought homosexuality was wrong, and that's it. They go off on rants about how evil and prejudiced conservative Christianity is and are often very insulting about it. If you can find times that I called homosexuals prejudicial, backwoods, hateful, evil demons from hell, please feel free to post it here. Don't bother looking; I never have. But that's the kind of thing they love to throw out there about conservative Christians. Meanwhile, people are jumping on my back for discussing one particular group of homosexuals.

Quite frankly, I'm a little sick and tired of it.
It's hard to feel all warm and fuzzy, or particularly objective, about a group when, generally, the institutions supported by that group, by and large, condemn an entire strata of society, attacking them on nearly every front, in every format, accusing them constantly. When one is condemned oneself, it's very hard to hold one's tongue.


Quote:
Originally posted by echo0001

If you are not one of the people prone to the behavior outlined in the previous paragraph, I don't think you really need to be upset here.
Okay, so you don't treat people that way.

As for the Flag Wars, yeah, it's a bunch of people getting stupid; people, unfortunately, have a tendancy to do stupid s--- Nobody ever said that gays, or even gays in a particular community, should be immune from criticism. I am not saying that you were wrong to post that; I wouldn't attack you for posting that.

But I would like you to consider the crap that Melon and Irvine have to deal with all the time....I don't agree with every little thing they say about cCs, but I try to keep in mind the way some cCs behave, and the way that certain Christian institutions and leaders treat gays.

Can't we all just get along?
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Old 05-28-2005, 09:22 PM   #83
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Oh INFP? I'm an INTJ - the thinker and CEO.
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Old 05-29-2005, 08:33 AM   #84
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i'll only offer these two thoughts, because i don't know where else to put them, and this particular thread seems to be where a consistent FYM dynamic has once again reared it's head.

1. it is impossible to have any sort of political discussion without stereotyping and generalizing. we can tack as many disclaimers as we want, but at the end of the day, politics is about masses of people. politics requires the individual to think as a member of a group, since the political apparatus can only serve the needs of groups, not specific individuals. thus, it should behoove everyone to know that whenever we speak of "Conservative Christians" who whatever group, we of course do not mean ALL of them. and it is the weakest possible argument to resort to a kind of, "wah, you're stereotyping me" claim when you can point to specific, measured pieces of legislation, combined with broader social action and awareness campaigns, aimed at persecuting one specific group. we can say that not all Texans are homophobic, but when the Texas State Congress wants to enact legislation that would prevent gay people from adopting, we are rightly able to call Texas politicians homophobic. i don't think all individual Catholics are homophobic, but the way the Catholic Church throws its weight around is clearly homophobic. we need to say this because dialogue and discourse are impossible without such organization of information.

2. there's a huge difference between 80s getting upset at being stereotyped, and people like Melon and myself who have to live with the consequences of stereotypes about gay people that are alive and well, as well as, and most importantly, people who think that it is okay to treat gay people differently because they have a questionable biblical interpretation of what they believe God might have said about gay people. in a modern liberal democracy, theological arguments cannot form the basis of social policy. i find it laughable when some Christians feel they are persecuted in the US because they don't see their values reflected perfectly by popular culture (i.e., complaining about the casual use of "goddammit" or "jesus christ!" in common conversation) and think this is tantamount to the real, measured discrimination gay people have to endur every day. i've never whined about being stereotyped; i've decried when stereotypes form the basis of amending the Constituttion of the United States, banning books from libraries in Alabama, preventing gay people from adopting in Texas and Florida, being able to fire people on the basis of sexual orientation, being unable to serve in armed forces, and the unavailability of legal recognition for a commited, adult relationship.
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Old 05-29-2005, 10:49 AM   #85
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^
Amen to that everyone can be stereotyped, no matter how hard I find it to empathise with any side of many arguements I believe we can all live in peace and accept each other as human beings, welcome to compassionate humanism

However after reading many of the discussions here they in my experience as an observer no matter what the topic they always end up in a series of highly elaborate, discretely veiled shit slinging matches, especially in threads with religious discussion that always carry conotations about homosexuality, all I want to point out is saying that religion is a mental illness is really as offensive to some as saying homosexulaity is a genetic defect, neither of which are what I've stated imo. God is man, man is God, man is the devil, we see things in our fellow man that are not of a definite nature, I capitalise the first letter of god due to the line of thought that I follow, if all man at some stage in the grand conscience of humankind believes in a higher being and this thought becomes institutionalised then God exists, the devil to me is a manifestation of all of mans misgivings, morality as it stands is vague as it should be, black and white do not exist there is only grey, we all need to pack our things and put them in the same suitcase for this is life we all need to be one.

One last thing remember we know nothing, the truth is uncertain and the truth is a different thing all together aethism, religion et al all have the same fate as I'm concerned to be condemned as utter bollocks when we die though we will find out or cease to exist, all that is certain for my life remains the certainity of that chance.
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Old 05-29-2005, 11:04 AM   #86
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Old 05-29-2005, 11:13 AM   #87
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Originally posted by ZeroDude
all I want to point out is saying that religion is a mental illness is really as offensive to some as saying homosexulaity is a genetic defect
Congratulations! You've figured out why I wrote this thread to begin with.

So the next time some religious fanatic wants to make some half-assed comment about homosexuality, I'll be able to refer them to this thread.

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Old 05-29-2005, 11:18 AM   #88
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Originally posted by melon


Congratulations! You've figured out why I wrote this thread to begin with.

So the next time some religious fanatic wants to make some half-assed comment about homosexuality, I'll be able to refer them to this thread.

Melon
Here I was thinking that you were just as bad as those fanatics as you put it, smart move, disarming your enemy so to speak but still residing in my post is all I want for us all, peace and love naive as that may be, we can all work towards it together.
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Old 05-29-2005, 11:21 AM   #89
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I've been swimming in the realm of academic discourse for so long that I no longer know what I really believe, if that's possible. I just know how to take a position--any position--and argue my case. I guess I should have become a defense lawyer?

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Old 05-29-2005, 11:28 AM   #90
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Originally posted by melon
I've been swimming in the realm of academic discourse for so long that I no longer know what I really believe, if that's possible. I just know how to take a position--any position--and argue my case. I guess I should have become a defense lawyer?

Melon
Ah you see, it is difficult to completely remove oneself from preconceptions, misconceptions and trying to adapt to looking at everything without your views being diluted by personal opinion,

P.S. you'd make a great defense lawyer The work you've done here proves that you'd only be open for attack by the most shrewd and creative thinkers
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