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Old 05-28-2005, 05:33 PM   #61
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How did this thread turn into a discussion on homosexuality?
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Old 05-28-2005, 05:35 PM   #62
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Don't you know, Dave? We can't have a thread about anything in FYM without it coming around to abortion or homosexuality.



Let's go back to the Bar!
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Old 05-28-2005, 05:37 PM   #63
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Seriously...

I think this could be a good and provocative topic to discuss, but it's obviously, in the space of four pages, gone far, far afield. I'd like to see actual debate on the connection (if there is one) between mental illness and religious experience. Without, if it's at all possible, the gross and unfair generalizations made by BOTH sides here. Most gays are not snobby, neurotic, overdecorating gentrifiers, not are most conservative Christians insane or cruel.

I'm stating the obvious, I know, but apparently it needs to be stated.

Thanks.
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Old 05-28-2005, 05:41 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by pax
Seriously...

Most gays are not snobby, neurotic, overdecorating gentrifiers, not are most conservative Christians insane or cruel.

I'm stating the obvious, I know, but apparently it needs to be stated.

Thanks.
I even stated as much myself. I said specifically that it was a particular group and that I didn't think all gays were that way.

melon, on the other hand, appears to paint all conservative Christians with the same brush. And that's what I've finally got upset about it and brought up "Flag Wars".
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Old 05-28-2005, 05:44 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli
I'm not gay nor am I religious nor am I a resident of the USA so I'm not overly interested in the gay versus USA brand of Christianity argument. I can understand the, umm, "grief" (for want of a much stronger word) but......

regardless of alterior motives this thread raised a topic of which I have no knowledge. And as my posts here are about me! me! me! I would like to continue the original discussion.

I can understand that people might view the original post to imply that religious people are fruitcakes and nonreligious people are depressed basketcases but I would still like to discuss this issue further.

Please

And yeah, like someone said, why the lack of happy art?
Love your drama queen figure, Beli. First time in this thread I laughed.

So why do you think most great art is about pain, lost love, disenchantment or isolation (beyond the chemical balance thing)? I read a quote once where all happiness is alike, but
pain is individual. Perhaps because so few people question the source of their happiness and so many people question the source of their pain.

Sorry to take this thread beyond your original scope, Melon. But your source did reference Dostoevsky who was a wonderful writer. And there is as much theory or more on the "insanity" of artists. And many of us are grateful for that "insanity."

Part of it, I think, is that we are so conditioned to repress our pain that it must come out somewhere, hence the poetry we write and other art we create when we are in young angst and
in older angst. Art is the release that frees repressed pain and the release that conjures up the visions lying in our subconscious.
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Old 05-28-2005, 06:32 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


This is partly my (very coy) response to society who, very earnestly and generally unintentionally, reduces sexuality to gross and unflattering banalities.

And this is my own response to that: reducing religion to gross and unflattering banalities. Science certainly has a very convincing explanation for why "prophets" have existed, and it's very curious how their "spiritual experiences" echo a very real epileptic disorder.


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Quote:
Originally posted by melon

I read insulting and ignorant comments on sexuality in this forum on a regular basis, whereas equally insulting and ignorant racist, anti-Semitic, or misogynist comments would be closed instantly. Then when I've requested such threads to be closed on the basis of ending such a double standard, I'm told to "lighten up." Knowing full well that I can't get my point across by writing racist or anti-Semitic threads, I thought I'd reduce religion to the same level that sexuality is reduced to here: as a "curiosity" devoid of all happiness and reduced to a misunderstood psychosis.
Quote:
Originally posted by pax Seriously...

I think this could be a good and provocative topic to discuss, but it's obviously, in the space of four pages, gone far, far afield.

It's kinda gone right where Melon intended, I think...
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Old 05-28-2005, 06:34 PM   #67
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Now that I think about it, actually, I suspect you may be right.
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Old 05-28-2005, 06:38 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint


Love your drama queen figure, Beli. First time in this thread I laughed.

So why do you think most great art is about pain, lost love, disenchantment or isolation (beyond the chemical balance thing)? I read a quote once where all happiness is alike, but
pain is individual. Perhaps because so few people question the source of their happiness and so many people question the source of their pain.

Sorry to take this thread beyond your original scope, Melon. But your source did reference Dostoevsky who was a wonderful writer. And there is as much theory or more on the "insanity" of artists. And many of us are grateful for that "insanity."

Part of it, I think, is that we are so conditioned to repress our pain that it must come out somewhere, hence the poetry we write and other art we create when we are in young angst and
in older angst. Art is the release that frees repressed pain and the release that conjures up the visions lying in our subconscious.

It's never occurred to me that we are "conditioned to repress our pain"; I'll have to think about that.

Perhaps we are also conditioned, to some extent, to express pain in creative ways (instead of simply braining somebody with a brick)?
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Old 05-28-2005, 06:43 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
Part of it, I think, is that we are so conditioned to repress our pain that it must come out somewhere, hence the poetry we write and other art we create when we are in young angst and
in older angst. Art is the release that frees repressed pain and the release that conjures up the visions lying in our subconscious.
Perhaps thats it. Its certainly socially acceptable to be happy as a lark but the expectation is that an upset person is to leave the room. The answer to the "How are you?" question is expected to be "fine" regardless of the individuals actual state at the time. Perhaps that is the purpose of art, to allow the artist to release some of the less socially acceptable emotions.

There is a Peter Gabriel quote, I don't have it to hand, but its basically when people are upset listening to happy music will only irritate. Joy is not what a miserable person wants to hear. The upset person wants to wallow along with some not so chirpy music. Or something to that effect. My apologies to Mr Gabriel.

PS I'm rambling.
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Old 05-28-2005, 06:50 PM   #70
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I think too it is the reason for our appreciation of art. We keep so much inside, so much secret because there is no outlet for it. Art allows us the recognition of ourselves that reality often denies us.
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Old 05-28-2005, 08:21 PM   #71
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Actually, you started a pretty interesting topic here, Melon.
Mania, creativity, religious fervor, visions, dreams. Are they all chemical imbalances, mental illness, or the connection to the right side of our brain that are there in all of us if our brain connectors connect? Does the chemical balance change naturally when going from alpha state to beta and vice versa.

And since the alpha state is more aligned with the subconscious, does the chicken come before the egg. Does a higher connection with your subconscious release the chemical or does the chemical make you more vulnerable to your subconscious or can it work both ways?

Interesting the difference between works of art created while using cocaine and opium (Coleridge).
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Old 05-28-2005, 08:26 PM   #72
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Does the lack of serotonin increase the likelihood of not being religious? Or does not being religious decrease serotonin?

And the same goes for religion and dopamine.

Apologies if I have asked something really daft but I have little understanding of these amino acids thingies.
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Old 05-28-2005, 08:33 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Melon and Irvine, do you think the homosexual community is free of discriminatory behavior? If you do, watch the PBS documentary "Flag Wars" sometime. The basic synopsis is that affluent snobby homosexuals set their sights on taking over and "revitalizing" a poor minority neighborhood in Columbus, Ohio. When I say "revitalizing", I'm not talking about revitalizing for the sake of the people who live there; I'm talking about "revitalizing" by using strong arm tactics to try to force these minority people out of the homes they'd lived in for decades. The strong arm tactics included, but weren't limited to, pressuring city council to enforce extreme codes. One man was fined repeatedly for having a little sign hanging in from his porch that was carved in "African-Relief" style, while across the street, his neighbors proudly flew their Gay pride flag with no legal problems whatsoever. The head of this movement to force the poor people from their homes, a lesbian realtor named Nina, was a particular b**** who treated the poor people like absolute crap, and even referred to one lady who was dying of cirrhosis of the liver as an "idiot" for refusing to sell.

This documentary was intense, and very very sad. Watch it if ypu get a chance.

And don't bother telling me "Well, that kind of thing happens to gays, also", because as you know, 2 wrongs don't make a right, especially considering the fact that the victims in this case, poverty-stricken African Americans and Hispanics, have never had enough clout or financial resources to do something like that to any group of people.

And I know that some people who read this, will think that by mentioning this incident that I am being "homophobic", or even in the words of one particular person "fanning the flames of hatred", but really, I just wanted to present some of the gay community's discriminatory sins, as some of the homosexuals on this forum never hesitate to present the discriminatory sins of the "self-proclaimed" Christian community.


you said it yourself: two wrongs don't make a right.

also: who cares? what does this have to do with anything? you've proved that certain gay people are no better or no worse than anyone else? is this supposed to be a revelation? why can't you make a point without stooping to degredate a culture? is it because you have no argument other than "gay people aren't perfect"?
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Old 05-28-2005, 08:36 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by echo0001


It's kinda gone right where Melon intended, I think...
Not with me, it hasn't. What Melon intended was to get Christians upset about the original topic, Religion As A Mental Illness. That didn't upset me greatly, because I give no creedence whatsoever to the idea. What I responded to was his incessant painting of conservative Christians as prejudicial jerks.
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Old 05-28-2005, 08:39 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
And since the alpha state is more aligned with the subconscious
Please explain. Pretend I'm an accountant and don't know anything about this topic.
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