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Old 05-28-2005, 12:21 PM   #46
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Sounds to me like an excuse to dismiss any thoughtful logic that you might not agree with.
This sounds like the crux of most "Christian activism" in America today.

Actually, I mentioned this in another thread. I think America suffers, in general, from severe xenophobia--"fear of strangers"--and religion, in general, feeds on it. And, like clockwork, when people are able to "humanize" strangers into neighbors, the fear goes away and religion looks for something new to be afraid of. First, it was fear of women. Then it was fear of racial minorities. And now Christianity hinges on its last fear: fear of homosexuals. It's a pity that Christianity, in general, is so fucking pathetic. It is mentally ill, when it constructs so many pseudosciences to support its view of the world.

But, actually, the main point of the original article is that most "prophets" are probably very . Notice how in the Old Testament that most of the prophets end up killed. Maybe the "prophets" in the OT were the equivalent of the town looney and they got tired of hearing their insane rantings and ravings.

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Old 05-28-2005, 12:43 PM   #47
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Originally posted by melon


This sounds like the crux of most "Christian activism" in America today.

Actually, I mentioned this in another thread. I think America suffers, in general, from severe xenophobia--"fear of strangers"--and religion, in general, feeds on it. And, like clockwork, when people are able to "humanize" strangers into neighbors, the fear goes away and religion looks for something new to be afraid of. First, it was fear of women. Then it was fear of racial minorities. And now Christianity hinges on its last fear: fear of homosexuals. It's a pity that Christianity, in general, is so fucking pathetic. It is mentally ill, when it constructs so many pseudosciences to support its view of the world.

But, actually, the main point of the original article is that most "prophets" are probably very . Notice how in the Old Testament that most of the prophets end up killed. Maybe the "prophets" in the OT were the equivalent of the town looney and they got tired of hearing their insane rantings and ravings.

Melon
You're attempting to put all the eggs in one basket. There are different forms of Christianity which offer different takes on what appears to be your only issue. It's not a one-way street, on the contrary to your argument that all the issue involves is a bunch of Bible-thumpers who attack the people rather than the lifestyle. I don't see the opposition to homosexuality as irrational, especially when you have groups like GLSEN stepping foot in public schools and distracting the learning environment. By stamping every denomination altogether, it only goes to show that you don't see the PCUSA, the Episcopalian Church, Dignity, or the UCC any different than more conservative outfits of Christianity. Your apparent fear of Christianity cancels out any merit towards your argument. All you seem to notice is the very conservative outfit of the church, and it doesn't speak for all that Christianity is about - and in fact, it is about more than one issue.
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Old 05-28-2005, 12:46 PM   #48
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80'sU2isBest, I'd love to hear your stories if you're still around...
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Old 05-28-2005, 12:49 PM   #49
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I don't see the opposition to homosexuality as irrational, especially when you have groups like GLSEN stepping foot in public schools and distracting the learning environment.
Like I said, xenophobia based on the irrational idea that homosexuals can be "recruited." It doesn't happen.

Now since we're talking about "distracting the learning environment," how about those creationists / "intelligent design" folks?

Quote:
By stamping every denomination altogether, it only goes to show that you don't see the PCUSA, the Episcopalian Church, Dignity, or the UCC any different than more conservative outfits of Christianity. Your apparent fear of Christianity cancels out any merit towards your argument. All you seem to notice is the very conservative outfit of the church, and it doesn't speak for all that Christianity is about - and in fact, it is about more than one issue.
The conservative aspect of Christianity still have a choke-hold on the rest of Christianity. Look at the Episcopal Church, for instance. The liberals are always trying to bend backwards to make the conservatives happy, and for the conservatives, nothing short of blatant homophobia will please them. If the liberals in the Episcopal Church were smart, they'd ignore the conservatives and excommunicate them, if necessary. After all, conservatives generally feel no qualms about splitting off of churches they see as becoming "too liberal"; whereas liberals still feel as if they have this sense of obligation to keep conservatives in the fold. As such, they constantly and consistently betray their own morality just to keep a loud right-wing base placated.

Since we're big on "absolute Truths" these days, I'd love to see the liberal churches develop a backbone and declare conservative theology to be blatantly incorrect.

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Old 05-28-2005, 01:03 PM   #50
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
It's not a one-way street, on the contrary to your argument that all the issue involves is a bunch of Bible-thumpers who attack the people rather than the lifestyle. I don't see the opposition to homosexuality as irrational, especially when you have groups like GLSEN stepping foot in public schools and distracting the learning environment.


please, tell me: what is this lifestyle? you seem to know much more about it than i do.

like, take today. i woke up early and went for a good run through the Zoo and then laid out for a bit trying to get some sunshine. i then took a nap, and made some lunch. tonight, i'm going to see a movie with a friend (straight girl) and we might head downtown afterwards and go to a bar for a drink. tomorrow, my landlord and i are having a BBQ. our neighbors are all invited, and they range from single gay men to a lesbian couple to straight couples with children and single straight girls. monday, i'll probably go to the gym and read my book, maybe go out to dinner that night with another friend.

this is as much the gay "lifestyle" as anything else.

but reality doesn't help a community that, as Melon has pointed out, needs enemies. so they are created. monsters are made so that the followers have something in common.

all communities do this, btw. Americans do it -- no matter your thoughts on the GWOT, there's been a rally-around-the-flag effect that gave GWB a 2nd term. in the gay press, there are myriad articles on gay bashings, gay discrimination lawsuits, vile quotes from religious leaders, and homophobic politicians plotting the next wave of anti-gay legislation. not that this stuff doesn't exist, but it also serves a very real purpose: scare gay people, make them think they are constantly under seige, and then they are going to be more likely (at the end of the day) to buy your newspaper or magazine so they can keep themselves aware of the dangers out there.
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Old 05-28-2005, 01:22 PM   #51
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Melon and Irvine, do you think the homosexual community is free of discriminatory behavior? If you do, watch the PBS documentary "Flag Wars" sometime. The basic synopsis is that affluent snobby homosexuals set their sights on taking over and "revitalizing" a poor minority neighborhood in Columbus, Ohio. When I say "revitalizing", I'm not talking about revitalizing for the sake of the people who live there; I'm talking about "revitalizing" by using strong arm tactics to try to force these minority people out of the homes they'd lived in for decades. The strong arm tactics included, but weren't limited to, pressuring city council to enforce extreme codes. One man was fined repeatedly for having a little sign hanging in from his porch that was carved in "African-Relief" style, while across the street, his neighbors proudly flew their Gay pride flag with no legal problems whatsoever. The head of this movement to force the poor people from their homes, a lesbian realtor named Nina, was a particular b**** who treated the poor people like absolute crap, and even referred to one lady who was dying of cirrhosis of the liver as an "idiot" for refusing to sell.

This documentary was intense, and very very sad. Watch it if ypu get a chance.

And don't bother telling me "Well, that kind of thing happens to gays, also", because as you know, 2 wrongs don't make a right, especially considering the fact that the victims in this case, poverty-stricken African Americans and Hispanics, have never had enough clout or financial resources to do something like that to any group of people.

And I know that some people who read this, will think that by mentioning this incident that I am being "homophobic", or even in the words of one particular person "fanning the flames of hatred", but really, I just wanted to present some of the gay community's discriminatory sins, as some of the homosexuals on this forum never hesitate to present the discriminatory sins of the "self-proclaimed" Christian community.
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Old 05-28-2005, 01:25 PM   #52
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Originally posted by melon
Like I said, xenophobia based on the irrational idea that homosexuals can be "recruited." It doesn't happen.
So what are they doing in our elementary schools, forcing questionnaires regarding sexual orientation in Framingham, Massachussetts for example? Why are they replacing Algebra classes with programs regarding homosexuality?

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Originally posted by melon
Now since we're talking about "distracting the learning environment," how about those creationists / "intelligent design" folks?
Let them teach that in religion class. Evolution could be considered a rational possibility, but it cannot be proven overnight. "How we got here" is surely open to interpretation.

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Originally posted by melon
[B]The conservative aspect of Christianity still have a choke-hold on the rest of Christianity. Look at the Episcopal Church, for instance. The liberals are always trying to bend backwards to make the conservatives happy, and for the conservatives, nothing short of blatant homophobia will please them. If the liberals in the Episcopal Church were smart, they'd ignore the conservatives and excommunicate them, if necessary. After all, conservatives generally feel no qualms about splitting off of churches they see as becoming "too liberal"; whereas liberals still feel as if they have this sense of obligation to keep conservatives in the fold. As such, they constantly and consistently betray their own morality just to keep a loud right-wing base placated.
You have to have a sense of understanding that the church does not want to split up. So in a sense, at least one side will bend over backwards. I would guess that they won't find much middle ground.

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Since we're big on "absolute Truths" these days, I'd love to see the liberal churches develop a backbone and declare conservative theology to be blatantly incorrect.
There have been numerous denominations claiming that the Bible is deeply flawed, and replacing gaps they dislike with liberal ideology. Often the case is that they're not worth buying into because they appear to be more politically motivated than spiritual. Take this link for example: http://mccchurch.org/

The church believes:
- Christ lived an "alternative lifestyle" and loved other men besides John.
- Christ wore a purple robe to the cross as a connotation of his "homosexuality."
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Old 05-28-2005, 02:13 PM   #53
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80'sU2isBest, I'd love to hear your stories if you're still around...
Glad to oblige.

The first concerns my father. Back in 1990, my father had emphysema and had pneumonia in both lungs. The meds weren't working, and the doctors even told us to call our out-of-town relatives in as soon as possible, if they wanted to see my dad before he died. The situation wasn't just dim, there was no light of hope whatsoever. My dad was going to die At least that's what everyone felt except me. I felt in my spirit that he wouldn't die, that it wasn't his time yet. It wasn't wishful thinking; it was a peace. I told my best friend and my brother about my conviction, and they both said they had the same conviction. That night, the three of us went into his room and prayed over him as he lay sleeping. The next day, the pneumonia left one lung suddenly and completely, and was leaving the other lung rapidly. The doctor said that he could not explain it, because theeds were not working, and declared it a miracle.

The other incident concerns God saving my life. I was driving my car headed north toward an intersection. Around 1/10 of a mile form the intersection, what I can only describe as a "silent voice" told me to stop at the next intersection. In my mind, I argued with the voice, saying "But my light is green". But the voice said "stop because that car is not going to stop". As I got closer, I could see that the car headed west at that intersection was making every indication of stopping; it was slowing down. So, in my mind, I kept saying "but it is going to stop, I can see it". Nevertheless, I kept getting the message that I needed to stop at the intersection because "that" car was not going to stop. Well, I got to the intersection, my light was still green, but I obeyed and stopped. I then saw that sure enough, the car stopped, also. But that turned out not the be the "that car" that the voice was talking about. Coming from the west, headed east, a Mustang travelling at a high speed ran its red light. If I had not been told to stop, and had not obeyed, I am sure I would have been hit and probably killed, but most assuredly seriously injured.
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Old 05-28-2005, 04:07 PM   #54
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Melon and Irvine, do you think the homosexual community is free of discriminatory behavior? If you do, watch the PBS documentary "Flag Wars" sometime. The basic synopsis is that affluent snobby homosexuals set their sights on taking over and "revitalizing" a poor minority neighborhood in Columbus, Ohio. When I say "revitalizing", I'm not talking about revitalizing for the sake of the people who live there; I'm talking about "revitalizing" by using strong arm tactics to try to force these minority people out of the homes they'd lived in for decades.
It's called "gentrification," and if you've been in places like Boston, you'd realize that there's no vast homosexual conspiracy. No, the fact is that wealthier *people* are coming back to urban areas that they abandoned after the race riots in the 1960s.

My point is that "gentrification" is happening in several cities around the country and to single out homosexuals as engaging in "discriminatory behavior" is laughable. Gentrification is annoying, but inevitable in a capitalist society, where increasing demand will (surprise, surprise) lead to increasing prices.

Affluence and snobbiness is certainly alive and well in heterosexuality, and if that PBS documentary tried to say otherwise, then I'd have to have a word or two with the producer.

Quote:
And don't bother telling me "Well, that kind of thing happens to gays, also", because as you know, 2 wrongs don't make a right, especially considering the fact that the victims in this case, poverty-stricken African Americans and Hispanics, have never had enough clout or financial resources to do something like that to any group of people.
Again, this happens as a result from all wealthy people. Again, look at Boston. I lived there for two years, and it is a prime example of gentrification.

You know what this is the equivalent of? Let's use good old S&L junk bond king, Michael Milliken, as an example. Rich and white and heterosexual. He stole hundreds of millions of dollars from working people through his scams. Now what if I said, as a result of Milliken's crimes:

"Look at those all those rich heterosexuals screwing over poor people!"

No, instead, you've shown a prime example of dominant versus subordinate hegemony. If a member of the dominant hegemony commits a crime (Timothy McVeigh, for example), then it's reduced to a "small group of fanatics" that committed the crime. If a member of the subordinate hegemony commits a crime (the 9/11 hijackers), then, all of a sudden, everyone in the subordinate hegemony (Muslims) is suspect and we have to create a large response (war on terrorism) to stop these people!

Likewise, trying to blame the "big, bad homosexuals" for all of society's ills is a typical response from the dominant hegemony.

Melon
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Old 05-28-2005, 04:22 PM   #55
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
So what are they doing in our elementary schools, forcing questionnaires regarding sexual orientation in Framingham, Massachussetts for example? Why are they replacing Algebra classes with programs regarding homosexuality?
Link, please? I've never heard of this.

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Let them teach that in religion class. Evolution could be considered a rational possibility, but it cannot be proven overnight. "How we got here" is surely open to interpretation.
Evolution *is* the rational possibility. Creationism and intelligent design are merely irrational religious ideas masquerading as pseudoscience.

And people can believe in creationism and ID all they want--in church.

Quote:
You have to have a sense of understanding that the church does not want to split up. So in a sense, at least one side will bend over backwards. I would guess that they won't find much middle ground.
Yes. "Ecumenism." Well, as I see it, conservatives aren't interested in compromise, so I haven't a clue why liberals want to compromise with stubborn people.

Quote:
There have been numerous denominations claiming that the Bible is deeply flawed, and replacing gaps they dislike with liberal ideology. Often the case is that they're not worth buying into because they appear to be more politically motivated than spiritual. Take this link for example: http://mccchurch.org/

The church believes:
- Christ lived an "alternative lifestyle" and loved other men besides John.
- Christ wore a purple robe to the cross as a connotation of his "homosexuality."
Well, you know what? That's their right to believe whatever they want, just like it's conservative Christianity's right to believe in global floods and other nonsense. But here's the difference: conservative Christianity's nonsense seems to infiltrate our lawmaking process, whereas MCC's nonsense is ignored. If you want a prime example of why gay marriage should be fully legal, it's the MCC. A religious group with religious freedom and should have the right to grant gay marriages if they so choose.

Melon
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Old 05-28-2005, 04:57 PM   #56
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I'm not gay nor am I religious nor am I a resident of the USA so I'm not overly interested in the gay versus USA brand of Christianity argument. I can understand the, umm, "grief" (for want of a much stronger word) but......

regardless of alterior motives this thread raised a topic of which I have no knowledge. And as my posts here are about me! me! me! I would like to continue the original discussion.

I can understand that people might view the original post to imply that religious people are fruitcakes and nonreligious people are depressed basketcases but I would still like to discuss this issue further.

Please

And yeah, like someone said, why the lack of happy art?
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Old 05-28-2005, 05:15 PM   #57
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Originally posted by melon

Likewise, trying to blame the "big, bad homosexuals" for all of society's ills is a typical response from the dominant hegemony.

Melon
Melon, I was almost certain your response would be in this vein.

By the way, show me once in all my posts in which I blamed the the "big, bad homosexuals" for all of society's ills. In fact, the extent of my expressed view on homosexuality so far has been to say I think it's wrong. You come a lot closer to blaming the "big bad Christians" for all of society's ills than I do the homosexuals. In fact, this was my first post in which I pointed out anything. You, on the other hand, are constantly blaming Christians.

I think it's rather hypocritical that some people in this forum go on and on about Christian prejudice against homosexuals, yet feel there's nothing wrong with being prejudiced against Christians, even Christians like me, who although thinking homosexuality is wrong, don't make a big deal about it, untl they're pushed.

Think about it, melon, how many times have I actually commented on homosexuality? Only a few, and each time, it was because I was asked and all I said was that I thought it was wrong. I never judged anyone in this forum for being a homosexual. And, I've NEVER started a thread against homosexuality.

On the other hand, threads are started all the time against "Christians" who think homosexuality is wrong, and I've even been told that I am "fanning the flames of hatred" by even believing that homosexuality is wrong.

There is so much prejudice against Christians in this forum it's ridiculous, especially since the ones exhibiting this prejudice are the one complaining about Christians they think are prejudiced.
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Old 05-28-2005, 05:29 PM   #58
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Oh good, the pointless generalizations are starting to come out now.
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Old 05-28-2005, 05:30 PM   #59
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Originally posted by melon


It's called "gentrification," and if you've been in places like Boston, you'd realize that there's no vast homosexual conspiracy. No, the fact is that wealthier *people* are coming back to urban areas that they abandoned after the race riots in the 1960s.

My point is that "gentrification" is happening in several cities around the country and to single out homosexuals as engaging in "discriminatory behavior" is laughable. Gentrification is annoying, but inevitable in a capitalist society, where increasing demand will (surprise, surprise) lead to increasing prices.
Watch the documentary, melon, and you will see that this was a neighborhood that had historically been minority "owned". This was not a case of the homosexuals reclaiming what they ran away from in the 60s, this was case of seeing something new that they wanted and not caring what they did to get it.

And they weren't just a bunch of people who "happened to be gay". Their expressed purpose was to establish a gay community.

If you would have seen the snobby elitist attitude that these young urban professionals were openly displaying against the minorities, you might have been as angry as I was.

And I'm not saying that all gays are that way. But this particular group was - they were conniving and scheming and downright rude to the people they were trying to run out of the neighborhood.

Do you resent it because I painted a particular group of gays as discriminatory, greedy jackals? Well, you paint all conservative Christians as discriminatory, hateful, greedy jackals.

I do find it odd that you give prejudice against financially impoverished people a softer name like "gentrification" and then poo-poo it by calling it simply "annoying". You seem to be all about "social justice". Why aren''t you taking a stand against this?
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Old 05-28-2005, 05:32 PM   #60
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Oh good, the pointless generalizations are starting to come out now.
Staring to come out now? They started when the thread started.
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