Religion and Natural Disasters.

[FizzingWhizzbees]

I might regret ever asking this question, but I've been wondering about it for a few days now so I thought I'd ask for some input from my fellow FYM posters.

So my question is basically how do those of you who believe in God explain natural disasters like the one unfolding in New Orleans right now? I guess the reason this doesn't make sense to me is that I've often heard people saying that they believe God created the universe and controls the universe in which case wouldn't God have the power to create or prevent natural disasters like hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes and such? And if so, then how can it make sense that God would allow such horrible disasters when I always hear people saying that God loves people, loves the world etc.

You see, I can almost accept people's claim that other horrible events like bomb attacks or shootings happen because God gave people free will which means they can choose to act in evil ways - eg by setting off bombs or shooting people. But how can that argument in any way explain a natural disaster like a hurricane? I know some will argue that human actions can make a natural disaster more likely (ie global warming could increase the risk of flooding) but there are plenty of cases where that doesn't apply, for instance last year's tsunami or the huge earthquake in Iran in 2003.

So, yes, any explanations or even just random thoughts on this subject would be appreciated. And please don't make fun of me for how inarticulate this post is -- as you all know I can talk all day about politics, but on the subject of religion I am utterly clueless (but curious). So be nice, please.

 

[sharky]

Same thing with cancer and so on I guess. I remember a priest coming over to dinner one night at our house and a neighbor that came to visit asked him why he believed bad things happen to good people. His response was something I will never forget: Because God loves us.

I know, sounds totally wrong. But think of it this way -- you never know how important love is until you have your heart broken, you never know how good it is to have money unless you have none, and one I can vouch for as being totally true, you never know how lucky you are to be healthy until you go through months of being sick.

I know that may sound a bit trite, but I also know there were alot of us who hugged our families a little tighter after 9/11 and appreciated our food and water a little more after the hurricane.

It's a love of extremes and there are definitely people that will disagree. After all, do you really need thousands of people to die to enjoy a glass of water a little more? But in the end, it's a comforting thought that through all each of us has been through, through all the pain others have been through, we keep going and putting oxygen in our lungs.

After all, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

 

[deep]

there are so many stories in the bible about these types of disasters being
retribution, or the lord's punishment on sinners.

many religious people look at N O Mardi Gras as a modern day "Sodom and Gomorrah"

what if someone found the writings of someone like a pat robertson a few hundred years from now
how is the katrina story much different than
Sodom and Gomorrah?

which if it did perish, was probably destroyed by an earthquake

Sodom and Gommorah 2005

 

[BVS]

many religious people look at N O Mardi Gras as a modern day "Sodom and Gomorrah"

Ever since this happen I've actually been waiting for some nutjob to come out and say this, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.

 

[Irvine511]

we had a very interesting thread about this post-tsunami.

 

[deep]

do you ever wonder

if Sodom and Gomorrah

got a bad rap?


perhaps they just suffered a natural disaster?

 

[verte76]

Like sharky said, some good came out of the hurricane. It's united Americans and the global community when there was all sorts of discord going on. But I get confused by natural disasters, too. It's hard for me to understand why God lets certain things happen, like disease. Thanks for your post Fizz!

 

[Se7en]

I might regret ever asking this question,

 

[nbcrusader]

I don't know if you were looking for a Christian perspective, but here it is:

Over a million people die each decade in natural disasters. Hebrews 13:8 says, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” But with terrifying upheavals in nature, what should we do as Christians?

Our first response should be worship. When Job lost his 10 children to a windstorm, he did not know the prologue of his book’ he didn’t know that Satan and God had had a dialogue and that he had been singled out for a special trial. Without explanation to Job, a natural disaster wiped out his children. With 10 fresh graves on the side of a hill, he faced a choice and he chose worship. “Naked I came from my mother’s womb and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised.” (Job. 1:20).

God controls nature. Can He be trusted? Yes, for unless He does, we would be subject to the whims of impersonal fate. If the devil creates tornadoes and tsunamis without God’s approval, I could die in a disaster before my appointed time. But if weather is in His control, then I rest with the confidence that my life is ordered according to His will and plan. If nature is out of God’s hands, then my life is also out of his hands.

If God is indeed sovereign (including controlling weather), we can have confidence that “all things work together for good”. We do not believe in fate, but in a specific purpose ordained by an all-wise God. Natural disasters might drive some people away from God; for others they have the opposite effect – they drive us toward Him because they remind us of what is temporary and what is permanent.

When the earth shakes under your feet, we duck under doorways. But ultimately we must flee into the arms of the only One Who is able to shelter us. No matter how many things move in this world, we can always find solid ground in the consolations of the Almighty. We are reminded that all things pass away and only what is eternal abides.

 

[Liesje]

total depravity works for me

 

[the iron horse]

"So, yes, any explanations or even just random thoughts on this subject would be appreciated. And please don't make fun of me for how inarticulate this post is -- as you all know I can talk all day about politics, but on the subject of religion I am utterly clueless (but curious). So be nice, please."


I believe:

-God created this party

-We did wrong and threw the party into a sinning spin

-This includes the earth (all creation) suffered

-God came here as a human being

-Spoke a few words above loving each other and
the Kingdom of God

-We killed him

-Question, questions,questions...


What have done today to help?

Who have helped?

What kind words have we said?

What food have we given away?


Blaming God is easy,

Seeing ourselves is often, not very pretty.

 

[Irvine511]

I don't know if you were looking for a Christian perspective, but here it is:

Over a million people die each decade in natural disasters. Hebrews 13:8 says, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” But with terrifying upheavals in nature, what should we do as Christians?

Our first response should be worship. When Job lost his 10 children to a windstorm, he did not know the prologue of his book’ he didn’t know that Satan and God had had a dialogue and that he had been singled out for a special trial. Without explanation to Job, a natural disaster wiped out his children. With 10 fresh graves on the side of a hill, he faced a choice and he chose worship. “Naked I came from my mother’s womb and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised.” (Job. 1:20).

God controls nature. Can He be trusted? Yes, for unless He does, we would be subject to the whims of impersonal fate. If the devil creates tornadoes and tsunamis without God’s approval, I could die in a disaster before my appointed time. But if weather is in His control, then I rest with the confidence that my life is ordered according to His will and plan. If nature is out of God’s hands, then my life is also out of his hands.

If God is indeed sovereign (including controlling weather), we can have confidence that “all things work together for good”. We do not believe in fate, but in a specific purpose ordained by an all-wise God. Natural disasters might drive some people away from God; for others they have the opposite effect – they drive us toward Him because they remind us of what is temporary and what is permanent.

When the earth shakes under your feet, we duck under doorways. But ultimately we must flee into the arms of the only One Who is able to shelter us. No matter how many things move in this world, we can always find solid ground in the consolations of the Almighty. We are reminded that all things pass away and only what is eternal abides.

as logical as this is, i can't help but wonder about a god -- if we are to believe that, ultimately, god controls tornadoes and tsunamis and hurricanes -- who would do this to his children.

seems cruel, spiteful, as if he enjoys torturing his children as an elderly woman in new orleans climbs up another flight of stairs to her attic as the water rises, she's terrified, the water rises further, she can't get out to the roof, its up to her chest, her neck, she knows she's going to drown and then she breathes her first breath of putrid, filthy water that fills her lungs and she screams underwater but the screaming only makes her lungs fill with more water because she's trapped and then it burns and she's terrified and wondering how this could have happened.

the same things for children crushed by buildings in an earthquake, swallowed by the ocean in a tsunami, and so on and so forth. i don't see how, in a moment of violent, undeserved, random death caused by natural elements that god, as we understand him, could be present in that moment and the cause of that moment and the author of that moment. why would he do this to you? how is this for the best?

this is where faith falls utterly apart for me. i can't place my trust in someone or something who would essentially cause a horrible and horrific death to the most vulnerable in society, to those which, it could probably be argued, he has given least.

as i said during the tsunami, and i'll say it again now, i would denounce such a god who would demand such displays of faith in the face of such senseless death that he himself has caused. what an awful, cruel, spiteful test of faith. a test that would, by my definitions, strip said god of worthiness of worship.

that said, this affirms my faith in the essential existential state of the human condition. it's not that there's no god, necessarily, it's that there's no god unless we choose to believe that there is one. there is no divine force at play or behind or beneath all the tragedy (and triumph) in the world. it simply IS, and how we deal with it is what matters, and it's through the recognition of those who suffer as our brothers and sisters, no matter their color of skin or ethnicty or geographic location, that we then affirm the fact that we are all connected to each other and all come from the same place, for if i am human, and a human drowns in a tsunami or is crushed in an earthquake, then i must be able to know that human's pain and suffering and do all i can do prevent that because whenever anyone suffers, i suffer to, since we are all endowed the the same capacity to feel pain (and joy) because we all come from that place which is not here, but which might exist beyond here.

and i might call that God. i'm not sure.

but i'm not a Christian, in the sense that FW was asking, but i responded anyway.

oh well.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

I know, sounds totally wrong. But think of it this way -- you never know how important love is until you have your heart broken, you never know how good it is to have money unless you have none, and one I can vouch for as being totally true, you never know how lucky you are to be healthy until you go through months of being sick.

That's interesting, I'd never really thought of it that way before. But again, I guess it makes me question what people mean when they talk about a "loving God" because if God is willing to take away people's family or friends or home in order to make them appreciate what they have, I don't really see that as love in the way it's typically defined. I don't know though, maybe it's just a different way of defining love.

Thanks for your post though, that's given me something to think about.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

we had a very interesting thread about this post-tsunami.

Thanks, I just looked it up and I'll read it properly tomorrow when I have some more time online.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Blaming God is easy,

Seeing ourselves is often, not very pretty.

Well I wasn't trying to blame God. I don't even know that I believe in God. I just wanted to understand how those who do believe in God can rationalise or explain natural disasters especially when they claim that God controls everything and that God loves His people.

-God created this party

-We did wrong and threw the party into a sinning spin

-This includes the earth (all creation) suffered

But all the human wrongdoing in the world can't cause earthquakes or tsunamis or volcanic eruptions. If you don't believe in God or don't believe that God controls nature then you just attribute those things to nature, but if you do believe in a God who controls nature then how do you account for them? Or are you saying that human wrongdoing causes natural disasters and if that is what you're saying can you explain how that works.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

I don't know if you were looking for a Christian perspective, but here it is:

I'm interested in hearing opinions from pretty much any perspective, so thank-you for your reponse.

God controls nature. Can He be trusted? Yes, for unless He does, we would be subject to the whims of impersonal fate. If the devil creates tornadoes and tsunamis without God’s approval, I could die in a disaster before my appointed time. But if weather is in His control, then I rest with the confidence that my life is ordered according to His will and plan. If nature is out of God’s hands, then my life is also out of his hands.

So you do believe that God controls nature and therefore must have been able to either create or prevent the hurricane? In which case, how can it make sense that God would wish such horrible suffering for people? If God loves people then how can He want to see them suffer so badly? I can't imagine the sort of horror that people in New Orleans have been through, and yet you're suggesting that God actually chose to inflict that suffering on them (at least I think so -- if you believe "God controls nature" then He must have controlled the hurricane?). It just doesn't make sense to me -- how can I believe that God loves people if He chooses to inflict that horrible suffering on people? Am I using the wrong definition of love? Is there another definition of love that would make it okay to inflict horrible suffering on people if it's all part of some grand plan?

Ugh, I don't understand.

 

[the iron horse]

"Ugh, I don't understand."


Reading the thread again might help.



*it's a dance of a journey*

 

[melon]

Let's put it this way: hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes, etc. are all signs of a geologically healthy planet. Hurricanes suck the immense heat concentrated around the Equator and shove it north towards the cooler regions. Maybe without hurricanes, the equatorial regions would suffer from 150+ degree heat and we'd have everyone dropping dead.

Earthquakes and volcanoes are both valuable parts of the carbon cycle. Earthquakes send spent carbon back into the Earth and volcanoes spew fresh material onto the surface.

Without any of this, we'd be like Mars: a cold, desert-like planet devoid of all life. Maybe we need to stop being so anthropocentric and start thinking of the larger picture.

Melon

 

[Mongpoovian]

I think the Onion said it best:

God Outdoes Terrorists Yet Again

Billions of people have died from natural disaters over the course of human history. I think you can come to a number of conclusions from this.

1.) There is a god - He kills people and causes suffering for some indeterminable omnipotent reason.
2.) There is a god - He has no function in these natural disasters other than to collect the souls of the deceased.
3.) There is no god - A just being would never inflict such horrible suffering onto people.
4.) There is no god - Maybe living 10 feet below sea level near the ocean in a hurricane zone is a poor decision.

Really, if you're thinking about god, you can pick: god either knowingly causes death and destruction (or sits idly by), or there is nothing happening but natural events.

I'd side with natural events. It's terrifying to think that there is an omnipotent being somewhere out there that fails to arrest disasters or causes them for kicks.

 

[the iron horse]

"It's terrifying to think that there is an omnipotent being somewhere out there that fails to arrest disasters or causes them for kicks."


Do you desire a God who intervenes in our lives everyday?

Who changes the natural course of nature?


Who stops you from speeding to work in your automobile?


I'm happy to believe there is an omnipotent being out there who grants us the freedom to decide our actions.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Who changes the natural course of nature?

[...]

I'm happy to believe there is an omnipotent being out there who grants us the freedom to decide our actions.

I can understand the idea that God could grant people the freedom to make their own decisions and act as they see fit. But as I said before, how can those human decisions cause natural disasters like the hurricane or the 2004 tsunami or the 2003 earthquake in Iran? In my opinion they can't, so it's impossible to blame human activity for natural disasters.

When you talk about the "natural course of nature" as something which God doesn't change, does that mean you believe God doesn't change it because He chooses not to or because He can't? If the former, doesn't that again raise the question of why God allows such horrible suffering? If the latter, how does that fit in with the idea of a God who created the universe and controls the universe?

 

[melon]

The planet is reliably governed by the laws of science. Humans can cause natural disasters--but that's only in terms of environmental damage. Cutting down mass amounts of trees, belching large amounts of carbon dioxide, diverting rivers for irrigation systems...all of these can cascade into changing weather patterns.

Funny, though. Conservatives will blame "sin" as a form of human influence on the environment, but flat out refuse to acknowledge human environmental destruction as influencing the environment.

Melon

 

[Mongpoovian]

"It's terrifying to think that there is an omnipotent being somewhere out there that fails to arrest disasters or causes them for kicks."


Do you desire a God who intervenes in our lives everyday?

Who changes the natural course of nature?


Who stops you from speeding to work in your automobile?


I'm happy to believe there is an omnipotent being out there who grants us the freedom to decide our actions.

And how is that any different, any more comforting than the belief that the only thing governing our actions is the laws of physics?

I desire the lack of a "big brother" that provides me with free will, constantly watches my actions, and then judges those freely chosen actions as acceptable or unacceptable.

I think that if there were some omnipotent being out there, he wouldn't give a rat's patoot about the goings on of some transient species on some nameless planet.

Disasters are caused by nature, people live, people die, but there's nothing out there that has a reason to care.

If you truly do believe that there is a caring god with a special interest in humanity out there, he is either unwilling to intercede, or wanted those people dead. I see no third option.

 

[deep]

Funny, though. Conservatives will blame "sin" as a form of human influence on the environment, but flat out refuse to acknowledge human environmental destruction as influencing the environment.

Melon

agenda driven beliefs

 

[STING2]

Let's put it this way: hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes, etc. are all signs of a geologically healthy planet. Hurricanes suck the immense heat concentrated around the Equator and shove it north towards the cooler regions. Maybe without hurricanes, the equatorial regions would suffer from 150+ degree heat and we'd have everyone dropping dead.

Earthquakes and volcanoes are both valuable parts of the carbon cycle. Earthquakes send spent carbon back into the Earth and volcanoes spew fresh material onto the surface.

Without any of this, we'd be like Mars: a cold, desert-like planet devoid of all life. Maybe we need to stop being so anthropocentric and start thinking of the larger picture.

Melon

I think this post by Melon answers the original question.

 

[stammer476]

When you talk about the "natural course of nature" as something which God doesn't change, does that mean you believe God doesn't change it because He chooses not to or because He can't? If the former, doesn't that again raise the question of why God allows such horrible suffering? If the latter, how does that fit in with the idea of a God who created the universe and controls the universe?

I think that God has the ability to stop such events from happening, but chooses not to. It's an idea called "divine shyness," in which God has a certain reluctance to intervene in the natural order for His reluctance of being too dominant.

Having power over someone or something complicates your life, and infinate power infinately complicates. Add to that a love for mankind both corporately and individualy, and you've got tough decisions on God's part in every situation. The truth is that we lack His perspective, and what we determine to be heartless and cruel inactivity may be quite the opposite. As Melon pointed out, God's intervention in the earth's natural order may have worse consequences than His lack of intervention.

It's a difficult concept for our modern society. Power is the currency of our world, and just like we could not imagine having wealth and refusing to spend it, we cannot imagine having power and refusing to use it. But God has a difficult choice in deciding when to initiate and when to refuse His activity in our world. Until we get to directly ask for His reasoning, we'll never have the direct answers we're looking for.

 

[stammer476]

agenda driven beliefs

An agenda that is arrogant and ignorant to the extreme.

I guess they missed the part where Jesus said, "He [God} causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."

 

[unosdostres14]

The hurricane happened because of proper atmospheric conditions which causes the phenomena known as a hurricane.

I don't really see any evidence of a "God" causing it.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Ever since this happen I've actually been waiting for some nutjob to come out and say this, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.

You're kidding? No one has said it near you?

I got an e-mail stating just that. And as I pointed out, God spared the "sinful" part of the city. Must like the French Quarter and Mardi Gras after all.

 

[diamond]

maybe God wanted to see how we would deal with this crisis.
maybe God wanted to see how we would deal with our brothers and sisters.
maybe God earmarked a few of his souls in N.O. to come home early so that..
God could then relocate some of his children now who lost every earthly possesion to a predestined location to find a new mate, to perhaps find a new career, or to simply find themselves.

God has a plan inwhich we are all interwoven, loves us more than we know, but in our earthbound understanding we simply don't comprehend it yet, but will at a future date, maybe in this life we will or the life to come.


God knows all, God also will let us judge ourselves in his presence based all circumstances and all that we know about his existence. Many will then realize at that time how much they were and are loved by God.

Part of this life was and has given men their free will to seek God's will..Once we as his children understand that principle,life here is much more simplified.

The purest truth and commandment given us is that we have unconditional love for our brothers and sisters, the same type of unconditional love that God has for us.

Again once we do this all things fall into order, an order ordained by God before the earth was created.

db9