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Old 09-09-2005, 07:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
I don't know if you were looking for a Christian perspective, but here it is:
I'm interested in hearing opinions from pretty much any perspective, so thank-you for your reponse.

Quote:
God controls nature. Can He be trusted? Yes, for unless He does, we would be subject to the whims of impersonal fate. If the devil creates tornadoes and tsunamis without God’s approval, I could die in a disaster before my appointed time. But if weather is in His control, then I rest with the confidence that my life is ordered according to His will and plan. If nature is out of God’s hands, then my life is also out of his hands.
So you do believe that God controls nature and therefore must have been able to either create or prevent the hurricane? In which case, how can it make sense that God would wish such horrible suffering for people? If God loves people then how can He want to see them suffer so badly? I can't imagine the sort of horror that people in New Orleans have been through, and yet you're suggesting that God actually chose to inflict that suffering on them (at least I think so -- if you believe "God controls nature" then He must have controlled the hurricane?). It just doesn't make sense to me -- how can I believe that God loves people if He chooses to inflict that horrible suffering on people? Am I using the wrong definition of love? Is there another definition of love that would make it okay to inflict horrible suffering on people if it's all part of some grand plan?

Ugh, I don't understand.
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Old 09-09-2005, 07:40 PM   #17
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"Ugh, I don't understand."


Reading the thread again might help.



*it's a dance of a journey*
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Old 09-09-2005, 07:53 PM   #18
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Let's put it this way: hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes, etc. are all signs of a geologically healthy planet. Hurricanes suck the immense heat concentrated around the Equator and shove it north towards the cooler regions. Maybe without hurricanes, the equatorial regions would suffer from 150+ degree heat and we'd have everyone dropping dead.

Earthquakes and volcanoes are both valuable parts of the carbon cycle. Earthquakes send spent carbon back into the Earth and volcanoes spew fresh material onto the surface.

Without any of this, we'd be like Mars: a cold, desert-like planet devoid of all life. Maybe we need to stop being so anthropocentric and start thinking of the larger picture.

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Old 09-09-2005, 07:58 PM   #19
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I think the Onion said it best:

Quote:
God Outdoes Terrorists Yet Again
Billions of people have died from natural disaters over the course of human history. I think you can come to a number of conclusions from this.

1.) There is a god - He kills people and causes suffering for some indeterminable omnipotent reason.
2.) There is a god - He has no function in these natural disasters other than to collect the souls of the deceased.
3.) There is no god - A just being would never inflict such horrible suffering onto people.
4.) There is no god - Maybe living 10 feet below sea level near the ocean in a hurricane zone is a poor decision.

Really, if you're thinking about god, you can pick: god either knowingly causes death and destruction (or sits idly by), or there is nothing happening but natural events.

I'd side with natural events. It's terrifying to think that there is an omnipotent being somewhere out there that fails to arrest disasters or causes them for kicks.
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Old 09-09-2005, 08:05 PM   #20
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"It's terrifying to think that there is an omnipotent being somewhere out there that fails to arrest disasters or causes them for kicks."


Do you desire a God who intervenes in our lives everyday?

Who changes the natural course of nature?


Who stops you from speeding to work in your automobile?


I'm happy to believe there is an omnipotent being out there who grants us the freedom to decide our actions.
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Old 09-09-2005, 08:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by the iron horse
Who changes the natural course of nature?

[...]

I'm happy to believe there is an omnipotent being out there who grants us the freedom to decide our actions.
I can understand the idea that God could grant people the freedom to make their own decisions and act as they see fit. But as I said before, how can those human decisions cause natural disasters like the hurricane or the 2004 tsunami or the 2003 earthquake in Iran? In my opinion they can't, so it's impossible to blame human activity for natural disasters.

When you talk about the "natural course of nature" as something which God doesn't change, does that mean you believe God doesn't change it because He chooses not to or because He can't? If the former, doesn't that again raise the question of why God allows such horrible suffering? If the latter, how does that fit in with the idea of a God who created the universe and controls the universe?
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Old 09-09-2005, 08:17 PM   #22
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The planet is reliably governed by the laws of science. Humans can cause natural disasters--but that's only in terms of environmental damage. Cutting down mass amounts of trees, belching large amounts of carbon dioxide, diverting rivers for irrigation systems...all of these can cascade into changing weather patterns.

Funny, though. Conservatives will blame "sin" as a form of human influence on the environment, but flat out refuse to acknowledge human environmental destruction as influencing the environment.

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Old 09-09-2005, 08:37 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by the iron horse
"It's terrifying to think that there is an omnipotent being somewhere out there that fails to arrest disasters or causes them for kicks."


Do you desire a God who intervenes in our lives everyday?

Who changes the natural course of nature?


Who stops you from speeding to work in your automobile?


I'm happy to believe there is an omnipotent being out there who grants us the freedom to decide our actions.
And how is that any different, any more comforting than the belief that the only thing governing our actions is the laws of physics?

I desire the lack of a "big brother" that provides me with free will, constantly watches my actions, and then judges those freely chosen actions as acceptable or unacceptable.

I think that if there were some omnipotent being out there, he wouldn't give a rat's patoot about the goings on of some transient species on some nameless planet.

Disasters are caused by nature, people live, people die, but there's nothing out there that has a reason to care.

If you truly do believe that there is a caring god with a special interest in humanity out there, he is either unwilling to intercede, or wanted those people dead. I see no third option.
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Old 09-09-2005, 09:22 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon



Funny, though. Conservatives will blame "sin" as a form of human influence on the environment, but flat out refuse to acknowledge human environmental destruction as influencing the environment.

Melon

agenda driven beliefs
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Old 09-09-2005, 09:38 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Let's put it this way: hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes, etc. are all signs of a geologically healthy planet. Hurricanes suck the immense heat concentrated around the Equator and shove it north towards the cooler regions. Maybe without hurricanes, the equatorial regions would suffer from 150+ degree heat and we'd have everyone dropping dead.

Earthquakes and volcanoes are both valuable parts of the carbon cycle. Earthquakes send spent carbon back into the Earth and volcanoes spew fresh material onto the surface.

Without any of this, we'd be like Mars: a cold, desert-like planet devoid of all life. Maybe we need to stop being so anthropocentric and start thinking of the larger picture.

Melon
I think this post by Melon answers the original question.
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Old 09-09-2005, 09:49 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
When you talk about the "natural course of nature" as something which God doesn't change, does that mean you believe God doesn't change it because He chooses not to or because He can't? If the former, doesn't that again raise the question of why God allows such horrible suffering? If the latter, how does that fit in with the idea of a God who created the universe and controls the universe?
I think that God has the ability to stop such events from happening, but chooses not to. It's an idea called "divine shyness," in which God has a certain reluctance to intervene in the natural order for His reluctance of being too dominant.

Having power over someone or something complicates your life, and infinate power infinately complicates. Add to that a love for mankind both corporately and individualy, and you've got tough decisions on God's part in every situation. The truth is that we lack His perspective, and what we determine to be heartless and cruel inactivity may be quite the opposite. As Melon pointed out, God's intervention in the earth's natural order may have worse consequences than His lack of intervention.

It's a difficult concept for our modern society. Power is the currency of our world, and just like we could not imagine having wealth and refusing to spend it, we cannot imagine having power and refusing to use it. But God has a difficult choice in deciding when to initiate and when to refuse His activity in our world. Until we get to directly ask for His reasoning, we'll never have the direct answers we're looking for.
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Old 09-09-2005, 09:53 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep



agenda driven beliefs
An agenda that is arrogant and ignorant to the extreme.

I guess they missed the part where Jesus said, "He [God} causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."
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Old 09-09-2005, 10:03 PM   #28
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The hurricane happened because of proper atmospheric conditions which causes the phenomena known as a hurricane.

I don't really see any evidence of a "God" causing it.
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Old 09-10-2005, 12:27 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Ever since this happen I've actually been waiting for some nutjob to come out and say this, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.
You're kidding? No one has said it near you?

I got an e-mail stating just that. And as I pointed out, God spared the "sinful" part of the city. Must like the French Quarter and Mardi Gras after all.
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Old 09-10-2005, 02:06 AM   #30
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maybe God wanted to see how we would deal with this crisis.
maybe God wanted to see how we would deal with our brothers and sisters.
maybe God earmarked a few of his souls in N.O. to come home early so that..
God could then relocate some of his children now who lost every earthly possesion to a predestined location to find a new mate, to perhaps find a new career, or to simply find themselves.

God has a plan inwhich we are all interwoven, loves us more than we know, but in our earthbound understanding we simply don't comprehend it yet, but will at a future date, maybe in this life we will or the life to come.


God knows all, God also will let us judge ourselves in his presence based all circumstances and all that we know about his existence. Many will then realize at that time how much they were and are loved by God.

Part of this life was and has given men their free will to seek God's will..Once we as his children understand that principle,life here is much more simplified.

The purest truth and commandment given us is that we have unconditional love for our brothers and sisters, the same type of unconditional love that God has for us.

Again once we do this all things fall into order, an order ordained by God before the earth was created.

db9
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