Relgious stance completely offputting in posts

[dazzlingamy]

Ok, so in light of my athieism thread going down in flames and the fact that now nearly every thread I read involving issues bible passages start being bandied around and god said this and yada yada it completely changes the issue and suddenly it turns into a religious pissing competition and discussion has ended i didn't want to say anything but its feeling really offputting in FYM now.

Ok the way i see it is this, anytime ANYTIME anyone starts copy and pasting scripture the argument is over. You can't honestly believe that posting some words written in a book so many years ago and then your definition of them is enough to explain your side of the argument. It's ludicrious to even thin that is a valid response and cheapens your whole argument.

So you post something like Mark 1:21 'he walked to the forest and picked up a flower' means if you have anal sex you will burn in hell. It doesn't make any sense. When you quote bible passages, they already sound stupid and then you twist the words to fit your argument. Do you see how vapid this is?

I still don't understand how people rule their lives by one book, if fact i sometimes question their intelligence by it. How can you be a thoughtful, intelligent person, out there, working, and then say you believ ein something no one has ever seen, heard and that it tells you what to do by a book written by "someone" thousands of years ago like chinese whispers, and the end product is something that goes against what you are supposed to believe in.


where is your compassion? When is your 'enlightenment' to understand other peoples point of view (especially ones that are from a sensible non belief type position) How can you not see how offputting and agressive some of you are in threads on this board when you start spouting all this christianity fairytale stuff.

To be honest, i don't understand how anyone can be religious, even moderate religious people, and i know i could never marry a religious person, and don't thik i could be close friends with someone who is religious, because it actually scares me to think you are delusional in that way.

I don't care that there are religious people, but i do believe the world would be better if their was no religion.

I was thinking twice about posting this, but this issue has gotten me really frustrated. I know we can't have a rule saying you can stat using god and christianity in your arguments as i know that where peoples beliefs come from, but maybe you need to think that not eveyone or really not MANY people actually respect or care for religious beliefs being part of your opinion and acually does the oppisite affect and makes me not even cosider your argument.

I mean did there REALLY Have to be religious talk in the gay rights thread, i mean come ON. Laws in any country shouldn't be based on a silly little book that people for some reason want to live their life by it (and im talking about all books such as the koran etc) but at least in those countries 90% of so people are actually that religion. Its stupid to think that a minority of a religion can be so arrogant to think its "beliefs" can rule a country.

meh, im spent.

 

[maycocksean]

Ok, so in light of my athieism thread going down in flames and the fact that now nearly every thread I read involving issues bible passages start being bandied around and god said this and yada yada it completely changes the issue and suddenly it turns into a religious pissing competition and discussion has ended i didn't want to say anything but its feeling really offputting in FYM now.

Ok the way i see it is this, anytime ANYTIME anyone starts copy and pasting scripture the argument is over. You can't honestly believe that posting some words written in a book so many years ago and then your definition of them is enough to explain your side of the argument. It's ludicrious to even thin that is a valid response and cheapens your whole argument.

So you post something like Mark 1:21 'he walked to the forest and picked up a flower' means if you have anal sex you will burn in hell. It doesn't make any sense. When you quote bible passages, they already sound stupid and then you twist the words to fit your argument. Do you see how vapid this is?

I still don't understand how people rule their lives by one book, if fact i sometimes question their intelligence by it. How can you be a thoughtful, intelligent person, out there, working, and then say you believ ein something no one has ever seen, heard and that it tells you what to do by a book written by "someone" thousands of years ago like chinese whispers, and the end product is something that goes against what you are supposed to believe in.


where is your compassion? When is your 'enlightenment' to understand other peoples point of view (especially ones that are from a sensible non belief type position) How can you not see how offputting and agressive some of you are in threads on this board when you start spouting all this christianity fairytale stuff.

To be honest, i don't understand how anyone can be religious, even moderate religious people, and i know i could never marry a religious person, and don't thik i could be close friends with someone who is religious, because it actually scares me to think you are delusional in that way.

I don't care that there are religious people, but i do believe the world would be better if their was no religion.

I was thinking twice about posting this, but this issue has gotten me really frustrated. I know we can't have a rule saying you can stat using god and christianity in your arguments as i know that where peoples beliefs come from, but maybe you need to think that not eveyone or really not MANY people actually respect or care for religious beliefs being part of your opinion and acually does the oppisite affect and makes me not even cosider your argument.

I mean did there REALLY Have to be religious talk in the gay rights thread, i mean come ON. Laws in any country shouldn't be based on a silly little book that people for some reason want to live their life by it (and im talking about all books such as the koran etc) but at least in those countries 90% of so people are actually that religion. Its stupid to think that a minority of a religion can be so arrogant to think its "beliefs" can rule a country.

meh, im spent.

I agree, that there's not much point in bringing in scripture when you're talking to people who aren't believers. I try not to do it myself, and when I have done so it's usually in the context of debating with other Christians, where the Scripture does carry a lot of weight.

This has been kind of draining for me too, especially that New Jersey thread!

Anyway, hang in there. And remember, not all of us religious folk are TOTALLY crazy. Some of us are only a little.

 

[DublinGuy]

I'm glad to see someone write a post such as this. I'm an atheist too and get pretty fed up with people citing references to a book in order to promote their particular moral cause. I've no problem with people who either argue rationally for the existence of God or those who have a religious belief but at least question it, but I could never understand the people who have a blind faith and live their lives without even questioning it. Luckily there are increasingly less of these people in Ireland whereas in the States they seem to be on the increase if anything. I suppose Europe has become far more secular in recent times. What's it like in Australia, dazzlingamy? Anyway, the most important thing is that we're all humans and all appreciate the almighty U2! They're as close to something transcendent as it gets for me!

 

[vaz02]

dazzlingamy

When us atheists do voice our opinion we are drowned out by the vast majority of the believers too.

 

[U2democrat]

Not all us Christians push scripture on people. I know how that turns people off so I don't do it, my faith is more of a personal thing anyway.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Dazzling Amy, your thoughts resonate with me precisely. I agree with everything you said. I'd also like to see people using their OWN reasoning to hold up the structure of their arguments without bringing any two-thousand year old dogma based on the VERY loosest standards of critique with regards to historical accuracy one could possibly imagine.
With respect to deciding one's stance on various touchy issues, I encourage more people to impart their own wisdom, rather than that which has been supposedly been written by what evidently appears to be a very illusive supreme moral governor.
But then again, many Christians (or other) are too instransigent by nature to even listen to their own reasoning, so they stick with 'Gods.'
Us athiests/agnostics need to make our voices heard more often!

 

[AEON]

I understand your frustration. But I am curious as to what is the actual complaint. Is it that that Scripture is posted at all? Or is it that it seems out of context?

When I post Scripture, I try to use it to support my conclusion. I have seen many other people use articles, essays, news reports...etc. I also user other sources other than the Bible. But I do consider the Bible a valid source. You may not.

I am a former self-proclaimed atheist. I used to hate Christianity and have a real disdain for Christians. However, I did try and at least read what they had to write and listen to what they had to say.

What is great about FYM, in my opinion, are the various viewpoints. Yes, there are some conservative Christians in here. But there are also some atheists, some liberal Christians, Jewish professors, Catholic scientists...etc. There is just about everything, and I feel blessed to be a part of it. I have learned a ton in here.

I beg your patience and understanding on this. Like you, I like reading and discussing current events (I assume this because you are here in FYM in the first place). I am not asking you to accept the Scripture passages I post, I am just asking that you tolerate it.

 

[Greenlight]

Thanks for raising this issue dazzlingamy - it's been bugging me for a while too. I must admit whenever someone quotes biblical text now in a thread, I tend to switch off and don't bother fully reading the rest of their comments.
I'm not religious and I don't want to knock others religious beliefs but it seems to me that those who quote biblical passages are the most intransigent in their views and aren't prepared to concede that they just may possibly be wrong on a particular occasion. Obviously I don't know that much about the Bible but as an outsider there seems to be so many different versions of Christianity and consequent varying interpretations and arguments by different denominations about how infallibile or literal particular passages in the Bible may be that to my mind it lessens anyones argument if they have to resort to quoting scriptures here.

 

[redhotswami]

DazzlingAmy, I understand your frustration. There are times when I share the same, I admit. But I would like to offer you a new perspective: Just as athiests and agnostics can be diverse in their cognitive behaviour, please remember that people of any religious affiliation can be just as diverse.

That is just the nature of how we all are. We are all at different stages in cognitive development, and there are stages that some of us may never reach, regardless of what our beliefs are. And on top of that, you must consider temperaments as well. There are 4 groups, rationals, idealists, guardians, and artisans. The Thinking v. Feeling and the Sensing v. Intuition parts really come into play in how we go about making decisions and whatnot. It has nothing to do with intelligence or lackthereof...that is just how we are. No one is better than the other, because they are all valid.

That being said, please don't assume that anybody of any religious affiliation is narrow-minded and just another sheep in the flock. It is because of my beliefs that I have been opened to new ways of thinking, and have truly opened my eyes to this world and the people in it.

And again, I can see and understand why you are frustrated, and please do not take this as a personal attack, but reading some of the lines you said about questioning people's intelligence and saying they are delusional...kinda seems to me (again, i don't mean this to be offensive, it is an observation) that you are not as open minded as you would like religious people to be.

How can you be a thoughtful, intelligent person, out there, working, and then say you believ ein something no one has ever seen

And for the record, not all of us limit our faith to one book. Personally, I believe the world is my church. And while I can never prove that with physics or dynamics or anything, I can assure you that I have had some very personal experiences that affirm my beliefs, and often times even enhance it. I know God exists not because of a book, or what people tell me, but because I really do KNOW God. And there are many others just like me out there.

So please, hang in there. I know it is frustrating. But please don't assume we are all stupid and dellusional. We just go about things differently is all.

 

[coemgen]

As a Christian, I see your point. It must get annoying. However, just as we Christians have to remember that non-Christians may want to debate with a person, not a book, non-Christians should keep in mind that the Scriptures are the lens we see the world through. (And, yes, the Bible is historically accurate .)
If we truly are here to hear and debate other's perspectives, we need to have the respect to do so. I've always found the majority of people here very respectful, even when they have views that oppose mine. Hopefully, as we continue having fun here we can strive to keep in mind where others are coming from.

 

[verte76]

I understand your frustration, dazzlingamy. As a liberal Catholic I get frustrated by some of the quoting and moralizing too. I used to be a deist with a real distaste for Christianity. Even now, I get frustrated with some people in my church who I feel are reducing Catholicism to a few rigid definitions and leaving out the whole picture. I hope you will keep posting, I like your posts.

 

[redhotswami]

I hope you will keep posting, I like your posts.

Me too.

 

[anitram]

However, just as we Christians have to remember that non-Christians may want to debate with a person, not a book, non-Christians should keep in mind that the Scriptures are the lens we see the world through.

I honestly don't feel that way and I'd classify myself as Christian. I don't see the world through the lens of the Scriptures, nor do I find them to be the final authority.

And as much as anyone can claim that all religious persons act this way, it isn't true. I've never seen this type of aggressive scripture quoting here by Muslims, Hindus, or Jews and I know they are among us. It's typical of a certain type of Christian - and my theory is that these Christians are in good faith trying to evangelize and spread the gospel but in fact are turning away more people than they can imagine.

 

[BVS]

I completely understand your frustration. Especially when so many can quote scripture yet have no clue of the context or the reasoning behind it. I think FYM has single handedly turned certain people off for life.

 

[VertigoGal]

I agree with most of what you said and I admit to rolling my eyes when someone starts quoting the Bible as something we should actually take seriously in formulating specific laws.

How can you be a thoughtful, intelligent person, out there, working, and then say you believ ein something no one has ever seen, heard and that it tells you what to do by a book written by "someone" thousands of years ago like chinese whispers, and the end product is something that goes against what you are supposed to believe in.


To be honest, i don't understand how anyone can be religious, even moderate religious people, and i know i could never marry a religious person, and don't thik i could be close friends with someone who is religious, because it actually scares me to think you are delusional in that way.

I don't care that there are religious people, but i do believe the world would be better if their was no religion.

But that's just a little unnecessary and I can't believe no one's mentioned how offensive this bit is. Did anyone actually read past the first paragraph? A majority of the world is religious and I highly doubt they're all stupid or out of their minds. Refusing to get in a relationship with a religious person is just as closed-minded and you'd be missing out on a lot of decent people. I'm sorry I just find this weird.

And for the record I don't believe in god.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Re: Re: Relgious stance completely offputting in posts

But that's just a little unnecessary and I can't believe no one's mentioned how offensive this bit is. Did anyone actually read past the first paragraph? A majority of the world is religious and I highly doubt they're all stupid or out of their minds. Refusing to get in a relationship with a religious person is just as closed-minded and you'd be missing out on a lot of decent people. I'm sorry I just find this weird.

I agree. If I was that turned off by every statement I've ever read here about religion and Christianity in particular I would have left here a long time ago. If FYM can turn you off for life, well no offense but I think your priorities are a little off kilter as they relate to message boards, the net, etc. I just can't take it that personally or to heart to that great of an extent-yes it hurts sometimes, but that's life on message boards and outside of them. I actually could given so much of what has been said here, but I don't. Sometimes I leave and take breaks because it gets to me, but it would never turn me off anything for life.

I have never once insulted anyone's beliefs or non-beliefs here (I can still disagree with someone defending a certain opinion with the use of religion or The Bible). I couldn't care less if someone is an athiest or whatever, doesn't matter to me. Also I have never once intruded into any atheist threads and said ONE word, or interjected my opinion about any of it.

If you expect respect you have to give it in return. And the fact is that many of the blanket statements here about Christians are just that- blanket statements and sometimes really unfair stereotypes-and yes, insulting.

That's just my 2 cents worth, I'm tired of biting my tongue and staying out of it.

You can feel that way about quoting Bible verses, and I actually completely agree with you-but what you said that Vertigo Gal quoted was insulting and really not necessary-not in discussing your complaint about Bible verses being used in that way. Of course you have every right to feel that way, but how would you like it if someone said the same thing about athiests?

"To be honest, i don't understand how anyone can be an athiest, even moderate athiest people, and i know i could never marry an athiest person, and don't think i could be close friends with someone who is athiest, because it actually scares me to think you are delusional in that way.

I don't care that there are atheist people, but i do believe the world would be better if their was no athiesm"

 

[DaveC]

I can see most of your point, dazzlingamy.

I don't really have a problem with people putting out scripture in a debate that has religious connotations (like it or not, debates on gay rights and abortion have pretty big religious aspects). What I have a problem with is when people throw out a line of scripture, whether it's in context or not, and then they act like it's the end of the argument. That everyone's supposed to say "oh, well it's in the Bible/Koran/Book of Mormon/Vedas/whatever religious bookyou want to use. I guess I can't argue with that" - even when there's a genuine debate between the religious side and the non-religious side.

If you believe in the Bible, that's your prerogative. I'm perfectly accepting of the fact that it takes faith to believe in evolution and the Big Bang just like it takes faith to believe in the Bible, and until scientific theories are proven it takes some measure of faith to believe it, no matter how much supporting evidence there is.

But if you are going to use scripture for an argument, please do the following:
a) realize that your faith is not superior to anyone else's, no matter what they believe.
b) understand that your religious literature doesn't hold a lot of weight to someone who isn't a member of your faith. Just because you think the Bible is infallible and true, doesn't mean everyone else also does.
c) be willing to back up your point with logic (and yes, logic can be used to back up a religious viewpoint), and other sources if need be. Just like you can't write an essay with only one source (despite what a lot of university students believe, Wikipedia as a source does not work too well if you don't back it up with something else), you can't argue a point intelligently on a message board with only one source backing you up.

I don't mind religious arguments in posts, but please keep those three points in mind if you're going to quote scripture (and this goes for scientific literature too - get more than one viewpoint!)

That is all.

 

[najeena]

Scripture may be a lens to see the world through, but wearing other people's glasses rarely brings clarification.

 

[Liesje]

I agree with most of what people have said here, from both sides. As a Christian, I also find it highly inappropriate to be constantly quoting Scripture when in most of these cases it's being taken WAY out of context. The main themes in the Christian Bible are not inconsistent with basic common sense - treat people with respect, show love and compassion for EVERYONE even if they don't do the same for you, do not abuse creation/earth, etc. These are attitudes I think ANY person, Christian, atheist, or otherwise can agree upon.

But like Mia, VertigoGirl, Mrs. S said the original post is quite harsh. There are many assumptions there that are simply not true to the point of being laughable.

You can feel that way about quoting Bible verses, and I actually completely agree with you-but what you said that Vertigo Gal quoted was insulting and really not necessary-not in discussing your complaint about Bible verses being used in that way. Of course you have every right to feel that way, but how would you like it if someone said the same thing about athiests?

"To be honest, i don't understand how anyone can be an athiest, even moderate athiest people, and i know i could never marry an athiest person, and don't think i could be close friends with someone who is athiest, because it actually scares me to think you are delusional in that way.

I don't care that there are atheist people, but i do believe the world would be better if their was no athiesm"

Remember, atheism is just another way of understanding God, just like Christianity. They're simply different ways of understanding the same topic. You can't really say one is better, or one makes people stupid. It's like comparing the color red to the color blue - they're both colors, some people like one and some people like the other, and they have their own purposes, but in the end, neither one is better.

If the quoting of Scripture bothers you as much as it does me, just don't read it. There's several threads on the board right now I've just given up on. I've said my piece on the matter and people's attitudes continue to upset me, so I just won't open the threads. It's not that big of a deal.

 

[DaveC]

Remember, atheism is just another way of understanding God, just like Christianity. They're simply different ways of understanding the same topic. You can't really say one is better, or one makes people stupid. It's like comparing the color red to the color blue - they're both colors, some people like one and some people like the other, and they have their own purposes, but in the end, neither one is better.

 

[Maoilbheannacht]

Ok, so in light of my athieism thread going down in flames and the fact that now nearly every thread I read involving issues bible passages start being bandied around and god said this and yada yada it completely changes the issue and suddenly it turns into a religious pissing competition and discussion has ended i didn't want to say anything but its feeling really offputting in FYM now.

Ok the way i see it is this, anytime ANYTIME anyone starts copy and pasting scripture the argument is over. You can't honestly believe that posting some words written in a book so many years ago and then your definition of them is enough to explain your side of the argument. It's ludicrious to even thin that is a valid response and cheapens your whole argument.

So you post something like Mark 1:21 'he walked to the forest and picked up a flower' means if you have anal sex you will burn in hell. It doesn't make any sense. When you quote bible passages, they already sound stupid and then you twist the words to fit your argument. Do you see how vapid this is?

I still don't understand how people rule their lives by one book, if fact i sometimes question their intelligence by it. How can you be a thoughtful, intelligent person, out there, working, and then say you believ ein something no one has ever seen, heard and that it tells you what to do by a book written by "someone" thousands of years ago like chinese whispers, and the end product is something that goes against what you are supposed to believe in.


where is your compassion? When is your 'enlightenment' to understand other peoples point of view (especially ones that are from a sensible non belief type position) How can you not see how offputting and agressive some of you are in threads on this board when you start spouting all this christianity fairytale stuff.

To be honest, i don't understand how anyone can be religious, even moderate religious people, and i know i could never marry a religious person, and don't thik i could be close friends with someone who is religious, because it actually scares me to think you are delusional in that way.

I don't care that there are religious people, but i do believe the world would be better if their was no religion.

I was thinking twice about posting this, but this issue has gotten me really frustrated. I know we can't have a rule saying you can stat using god and christianity in your arguments as i know that where peoples beliefs come from, but maybe you need to think that not eveyone or really not MANY people actually respect or care for religious beliefs being part of your opinion and acually does the oppisite affect and makes me not even cosider your argument.

I mean did there REALLY Have to be religious talk in the gay rights thread, i mean come ON. Laws in any country shouldn't be based on a silly little book that people for some reason want to live their life by it (and im talking about all books such as the koran etc) but at least in those countries 90% of so people are actually that religion. Its stupid to think that a minority of a religion can be so arrogant to think its "beliefs" can rule a country.

meh, im spent.

Well, since your a member of this website I would assume that your a big U2 fan. Does U2's lyrics, which use scripture or reference scripture often bother you? Does it piss you off when U2 sing praise to God or pray for others during the middle of their concerts? The band you so love that you have taken the time to become a member of their website is wrapped up in the "silly little book" and other things as much as anyone posting on this website if not more so. If that does not bother you then, I don't think people's references to the bible or religion here should bother you either.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I honestly don't feel that way and I'd classify myself as Christian. I don't see the world through the lens of the Scriptures, nor do I find them to be the final authority.

And as much as anyone can claim that all religious persons act this way, it isn't true. I've never seen this type of aggressive scripture quoting here by Muslims, Hindus, or Jews and I know they are among us. It's typical of a certain type of Christian - and my theory is that these Christians are in good faith trying to evangelize and spread the gospel but in fact are turning away more people than they can imagine.

You can easily find just as much bullshit from those other faiths and it can often be as harsh as the most toxic Christians.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Remember, atheism is just another way of understanding God, just like Christianity. They're simply different ways of understanding the same topic. You can't really say one is better, or one makes people stupid. It's like comparing the color red to the color blue - they're both colors, some people like one and some people like the other, and they have their own purposes, but in the end, neither one is better.

No it isn't, by nature of not accepting the concept of the divine supernatural and seeing the world as it is it is not the same as accepting higher order or power. I think it is an insult to believers to tell them that their faith is the same as not believing in anything and an insult to what the likes of Dawkins call brights to be told their position is identical to believers.

When we reach that stage that "God" is taken to be the universe and not the same anthropocentric abstraction that it (although usually 'he') is then there is no point in belief. There is no faith in that position, at least people who follow scripture are consistent even if they are wrong.

"If religion were true, its followers would not try to bludgeon their young into an artificial conformity; but would merely insist on their unbending quest for truth, irrespective of artificial backgrounds or practical consequences."

- H. P. Lovecraft

 

[anitram]

You can easily find just as much bullshit from those other faiths and it can often be as harsh as the most toxic Christians.

I said "here" at FYM. It's not even up to debate in that context.

 

[dietcokeofevil]

Unfortunately, my aversion to Christians applies to atheists as well. They are just as dogmatic, just as aggressive, and just as condescending in tone.

No thanks.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Unfortunately, my aversion to Christians applies to atheists as well. They are just as dogmatic, just as aggressive, and just as condescending in tone.

No thanks.

Athiests are not dogmatic they are pragmatic. Christians arrogantly put forward their views about their faith and treat them as fact whilst they are totally unproven and unprovable. Athiests purely deal with objective facts to come to their understanding about where they stand, not any historically flawed scripture.

 

[martha]

Christians arrogantly put forward their views about their faith and treat them as fact whilst they are totally unproven and unprovable. Athiests purely deal with objective facts to come to their understanding about where they stand, not any historically flawed scripture.

I don't know. This post sure makes a case for the arrogance of athiests.

 

[A_Wanderer]

At least scripture is grounded, when abence of faith in God is matched by same opposition in reason by embracing mysticism and alternative sprituality masqued in pseudo-science it is equally bad.

Atheism does not by definition equate to reason.

 

[Liesje]

I've gone through some of the current threads to see more about all this Scripture quoting and Bible thumping and it's interesting that it's really less than five people actually doing this, but it's completely monopolizing the debate and tempting people to start threads like this one. It's very easy to see why many people, including Christians themselves, get annoyed with people behaving like this in the name of Christianity.

I think it is an insult to believers to tell them that their faith is the same as not believing in anything

How so? I'm a Christian, I said what you originally responded to, and I don't find it offensive. Everyone can participate in whatever religion or view of God works for them. Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean I'm inherently offended by someone being an atheist. I might be offended by certain things they say or do, but I'd never be able to say with certainty whether or not what offends me is because that person is an atheist. There are certain things I DO find offensive, such as if someone were to say "I am a racist" or "I support discrimination", but I don't think those attitudes are based or encouraged by Christianity or atheism. That's part of what bugs me about threads like this: how can people tell that when others post things that are discriminatory that it's BECAUSE of Christianity? Maybe that's just how that person is? If I were to meet a racist atheist, I'd never just assume that atheism = racism is OK. I think there are certain beliefs and attitudes people have that go much deeper than religion; they just like to use religion as a mask or an excuse to believe that way.

 

[AEON]

Scripture may be a lens to see the world through, but wearing other people's glasses rarely brings clarification.

Not exactly sure what you mean here, but it sure sounds great!