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Old 10-29-2006, 01:15 AM   #1
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Relgious stance completely offputting in posts

Ok, so in light of my athieism thread going down in flames and the fact that now nearly every thread I read involving issues bible passages start being bandied around and god said this and yada yada it completely changes the issue and suddenly it turns into a religious pissing competition and discussion has ended i didn't want to say anything but its feeling really offputting in FYM now.

Ok the way i see it is this, anytime ANYTIME anyone starts copy and pasting scripture the argument is over. You can't honestly believe that posting some words written in a book so many years ago and then your definition of them is enough to explain your side of the argument. It's ludicrious to even thin that is a valid response and cheapens your whole argument.

So you post something like Mark 1:21 'he walked to the forest and picked up a flower' means if you have anal sex you will burn in hell. It doesn't make any sense. When you quote bible passages, they already sound stupid and then you twist the words to fit your argument. Do you see how vapid this is?

I still don't understand how people rule their lives by one book, if fact i sometimes question their intelligence by it. How can you be a thoughtful, intelligent person, out there, working, and then say you believ ein something no one has ever seen, heard and that it tells you what to do by a book written by "someone" thousands of years ago like chinese whispers, and the end product is something that goes against what you are supposed to believe in.


where is your compassion? When is your 'enlightenment' to understand other peoples point of view (especially ones that are from a sensible non belief type position) How can you not see how offputting and agressive some of you are in threads on this board when you start spouting all this christianity fairytale stuff.

To be honest, i don't understand how anyone can be religious, even moderate religious people, and i know i could never marry a religious person, and don't thik i could be close friends with someone who is religious, because it actually scares me to think you are delusional in that way.

I don't care that there are religious people, but i do believe the world would be better if their was no religion.

I was thinking twice about posting this, but this issue has gotten me really frustrated. I know we can't have a rule saying you can stat using god and christianity in your arguments as i know that where peoples beliefs come from, but maybe you need to think that not eveyone or really not MANY people actually respect or care for religious beliefs being part of your opinion and acually does the oppisite affect and makes me not even cosider your argument.

I mean did there REALLY Have to be religious talk in the gay rights thread, i mean come ON. Laws in any country shouldn't be based on a silly little book that people for some reason want to live their life by it (and im talking about all books such as the koran etc) but at least in those countries 90% of so people are actually that religion. Its stupid to think that a minority of a religion can be so arrogant to think its "beliefs" can rule a country.

meh, im spent.
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Old 10-29-2006, 05:42 AM   #2
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Re: Relgious stance completely offputting in posts

Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Ok, so in light of my athieism thread going down in flames and the fact that now nearly every thread I read involving issues bible passages start being bandied around and god said this and yada yada it completely changes the issue and suddenly it turns into a religious pissing competition and discussion has ended i didn't want to say anything but its feeling really offputting in FYM now.

Ok the way i see it is this, anytime ANYTIME anyone starts copy and pasting scripture the argument is over. You can't honestly believe that posting some words written in a book so many years ago and then your definition of them is enough to explain your side of the argument. It's ludicrious to even thin that is a valid response and cheapens your whole argument.

So you post something like Mark 1:21 'he walked to the forest and picked up a flower' means if you have anal sex you will burn in hell. It doesn't make any sense. When you quote bible passages, they already sound stupid and then you twist the words to fit your argument. Do you see how vapid this is?

I still don't understand how people rule their lives by one book, if fact i sometimes question their intelligence by it. How can you be a thoughtful, intelligent person, out there, working, and then say you believ ein something no one has ever seen, heard and that it tells you what to do by a book written by "someone" thousands of years ago like chinese whispers, and the end product is something that goes against what you are supposed to believe in.


where is your compassion? When is your 'enlightenment' to understand other peoples point of view (especially ones that are from a sensible non belief type position) How can you not see how offputting and agressive some of you are in threads on this board when you start spouting all this christianity fairytale stuff.

To be honest, i don't understand how anyone can be religious, even moderate religious people, and i know i could never marry a religious person, and don't thik i could be close friends with someone who is religious, because it actually scares me to think you are delusional in that way.

I don't care that there are religious people, but i do believe the world would be better if their was no religion.

I was thinking twice about posting this, but this issue has gotten me really frustrated. I know we can't have a rule saying you can stat using god and christianity in your arguments as i know that where peoples beliefs come from, but maybe you need to think that not eveyone or really not MANY people actually respect or care for religious beliefs being part of your opinion and acually does the oppisite affect and makes me not even cosider your argument.

I mean did there REALLY Have to be religious talk in the gay rights thread, i mean come ON. Laws in any country shouldn't be based on a silly little book that people for some reason want to live their life by it (and im talking about all books such as the koran etc) but at least in those countries 90% of so people are actually that religion. Its stupid to think that a minority of a religion can be so arrogant to think its "beliefs" can rule a country.

meh, im spent.
I agree, that there's not much point in bringing in scripture when you're talking to people who aren't believers. I try not to do it myself, and when I have done so it's usually in the context of debating with other Christians, where the Scripture does carry a lot of weight.

This has been kind of draining for me too, especially that New Jersey thread!

Anyway, hang in there. And remember, not all of us religious folk are TOTALLY crazy. Some of us are only a little.
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Old 10-29-2006, 06:50 AM   #3
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I'm glad to see someone write a post such as this. I'm an atheist too and get pretty fed up with people citing references to a book in order to promote their particular moral cause. I've no problem with people who either argue rationally for the existence of God or those who have a religious belief but at least question it, but I could never understand the people who have a blind faith and live their lives without even questioning it. Luckily there are increasingly less of these people in Ireland whereas in the States they seem to be on the increase if anything. I suppose Europe has become far more secular in recent times. What's it like in Australia, dazzlingamy? Anyway, the most important thing is that we're all humans and all appreciate the almighty U2! They're as close to something transcendent as it gets for me!
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Old 10-29-2006, 08:02 AM   #4
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dazzlingamy

When us atheists do voice our opinion we are drowned out by the vast majority of the believers too.
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Old 10-29-2006, 08:39 AM   #5
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Not all us Christians push scripture on people. I know how that turns people off so I don't do it, my faith is more of a personal thing anyway.
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Old 10-29-2006, 09:25 AM   #6
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Dazzling Amy, your thoughts resonate with me precisely. I agree with everything you said. I'd also like to see people using their OWN reasoning to hold up the structure of their arguments without bringing any two-thousand year old dogma based on the VERY loosest standards of critique with regards to historical accuracy one could possibly imagine.
With respect to deciding one's stance on various touchy issues, I encourage more people to impart their own wisdom, rather than that which has been supposedly been written by what evidently appears to be a very illusive supreme moral governor.
But then again, many Christians (or other) are too instransigent by nature to even listen to their own reasoning, so they stick with 'Gods.'
Us athiests/agnostics need to make our voices heard more often!
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Old 10-29-2006, 09:41 AM   #7
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I understand your frustration. But I am curious as to what is the actual complaint. Is it that that Scripture is posted at all? Or is it that it seems out of context?

When I post Scripture, I try to use it to support my conclusion. I have seen many other people use articles, essays, news reports...etc. I also user other sources other than the Bible. But I do consider the Bible a valid source. You may not.

I am a former self-proclaimed atheist. I used to hate Christianity and have a real disdain for Christians. However, I did try and at least read what they had to write and listen to what they had to say.

What is great about FYM, in my opinion, are the various viewpoints. Yes, there are some conservative Christians in here. But there are also some atheists, some liberal Christians, Jewish professors, Catholic scientists...etc. There is just about everything, and I feel blessed to be a part of it. I have learned a ton in here.

I beg your patience and understanding on this. Like you, I like reading and discussing current events (I assume this because you are here in FYM in the first place). I am not asking you to accept the Scripture passages I post, I am just asking that you tolerate it.
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Old 10-29-2006, 09:47 AM   #8
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Thanks for raising this issue dazzlingamy - it's been bugging me for a while too. I must admit whenever someone quotes biblical text now in a thread, I tend to switch off and don't bother fully reading the rest of their comments.
I'm not religious and I don't want to knock others religious beliefs but it seems to me that those who quote biblical passages are the most intransigent in their views and aren't prepared to concede that they just may possibly be wrong on a particular occasion. Obviously I don't know that much about the Bible but as an outsider there seems to be so many different versions of Christianity and consequent varying interpretations and arguments by different denominations about how infallibile or literal particular passages in the Bible may be that to my mind it lessens anyones argument if they have to resort to quoting scriptures here.
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Old 10-29-2006, 09:52 AM   #9
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Re: Relgious stance completely offputting in posts

DazzlingAmy, I understand your frustration. There are times when I share the same, I admit. But I would like to offer you a new perspective: Just as athiests and agnostics can be diverse in their cognitive behaviour, please remember that people of any religious affiliation can be just as diverse.

That is just the nature of how we all are. We are all at different stages in cognitive development, and there are stages that some of us may never reach, regardless of what our beliefs are. And on top of that, you must consider temperaments as well. There are 4 groups, rationals, idealists, guardians, and artisans. The Thinking v. Feeling and the Sensing v. Intuition parts really come into play in how we go about making decisions and whatnot. It has nothing to do with intelligence or lackthereof...that is just how we are. No one is better than the other, because they are all valid.

That being said, please don't assume that anybody of any religious affiliation is narrow-minded and just another sheep in the flock. It is because of my beliefs that I have been opened to new ways of thinking, and have truly opened my eyes to this world and the people in it.

And again, I can see and understand why you are frustrated, and please do not take this as a personal attack, but reading some of the lines you said about questioning people's intelligence and saying they are delusional...kinda seems to me (again, i don't mean this to be offensive, it is an observation) that you are not as open minded as you would like religious people to be.

Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
How can you be a thoughtful, intelligent person, out there, working, and then say you believ ein something no one has ever seen
And for the record, not all of us limit our faith to one book. Personally, I believe the world is my church. And while I can never prove that with physics or dynamics or anything, I can assure you that I have had some very personal experiences that affirm my beliefs, and often times even enhance it. I know God exists not because of a book, or what people tell me, but because I really do KNOW God. And there are many others just like me out there.

So please, hang in there. I know it is frustrating. But please don't assume we are all stupid and dellusional. We just go about things differently is all.
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Old 10-29-2006, 10:27 AM   #10
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As a Christian, I see your point. It must get annoying. However, just as we Christians have to remember that non-Christians may want to debate with a person, not a book, non-Christians should keep in mind that the Scriptures are the lens we see the world through. (And, yes, the Bible is historically accurate .)
If we truly are here to hear and debate other's perspectives, we need to have the respect to do so. I've always found the majority of people here very respectful, even when they have views that oppose mine. Hopefully, as we continue having fun here we can strive to keep in mind where others are coming from.
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Old 10-29-2006, 11:06 AM   #11
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I understand your frustration, dazzlingamy. As a liberal Catholic I get frustrated by some of the quoting and moralizing too. I used to be a deist with a real distaste for Christianity. Even now, I get frustrated with some people in my church who I feel are reducing Catholicism to a few rigid definitions and leaving out the whole picture. I hope you will keep posting, I like your posts.
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Old 10-29-2006, 11:12 AM   #12
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Quote:
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I hope you will keep posting, I like your posts.
Me too.
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Old 10-29-2006, 11:35 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
However, just as we Christians have to remember that non-Christians may want to debate with a person, not a book, non-Christians should keep in mind that the Scriptures are the lens we see the world through.
I honestly don't feel that way and I'd classify myself as Christian. I don't see the world through the lens of the Scriptures, nor do I find them to be the final authority.

And as much as anyone can claim that all religious persons act this way, it isn't true. I've never seen this type of aggressive scripture quoting here by Muslims, Hindus, or Jews and I know they are among us. It's typical of a certain type of Christian - and my theory is that these Christians are in good faith trying to evangelize and spread the gospel but in fact are turning away more people than they can imagine.
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Old 10-29-2006, 12:34 PM   #14
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I completely understand your frustration. Especially when so many can quote scripture yet have no clue of the context or the reasoning behind it. I think FYM has single handedly turned certain people off for life.
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Old 10-29-2006, 01:22 PM   #15
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Re: Relgious stance completely offputting in posts

I agree with most of what you said and I admit to rolling my eyes when someone starts quoting the Bible as something we should actually take seriously in formulating specific laws.

Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
How can you be a thoughtful, intelligent person, out there, working, and then say you believ ein something no one has ever seen, heard and that it tells you what to do by a book written by "someone" thousands of years ago like chinese whispers, and the end product is something that goes against what you are supposed to believe in.


To be honest, i don't understand how anyone can be religious, even moderate religious people, and i know i could never marry a religious person, and don't thik i could be close friends with someone who is religious, because it actually scares me to think you are delusional in that way.

I don't care that there are religious people, but i do believe the world would be better if their was no religion.
But that's just a little unnecessary and I can't believe no one's mentioned how offensive this bit is. Did anyone actually read past the first paragraph? A majority of the world is religious and I highly doubt they're all stupid or out of their minds. Refusing to get in a relationship with a religious person is just as closed-minded and you'd be missing out on a lot of decent people. I'm sorry I just find this weird.

And for the record I don't believe in god.
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