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Old 10-31-2006, 01:32 AM   #91
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Originally posted by nathan1977


How many gods committed suicide to do so?
That's an interesting statement, especially given the belief that many denominations of Christianity say suicide is an unforgivable sin...

Reminds me of the line from a James song:

'You know they'd come for you, so it was suicide, suicide"
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Old 10-31-2006, 01:52 AM   #92
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Originally posted by dietcokeofevil
Watch or Listen to the POWER OF MYTH, by Joseph Campbell. Pretty Darn Cool
I own it and have read it many times. He misrepresents Christianity at times, but his work is still pretty good.

My favorite is Hero of a Thousand Faces
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Old 10-31-2006, 01:57 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


That's an interesting statement, especially given the belief that many denominations of Christianity say suicide is an unforgivable sin...

Which ones? I know that Catholics used to believe this but I don't they do anymore (not sure).

Every other Christian denomination I am familiar with teaches that once we accept Christ ALL sins are forgiven - past, present, and future.

BVS - I am sure you mean well, but you seem a little hostile toward Christianity...and a little misinformed.
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Old 10-31-2006, 02:12 AM   #94
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Hrmmmm

argh, its just so i dont know foreign to me to read this. I just honestly 100% cannot understand someone believing in God. I do believe this is because you are brought up this way in a religious family and was conditioned to believe this way. I was brought up with choices, everything laid bare and i got to choose, and i chose (to me) the logical path. You have to at least see that not believing is some much easier to do then to believe.

You want to know why I don't like or respect christianity

1. Firstly the views on homosexuality and life and conception i completely disagree with
2. That absolute hatred some people have for 'sinners' and the way they go about it
3. The fact that you live your life by the words or someone you don't know, from a time a long time ago. Not one of you has see or spoken to god. Yes you may say you've felt a presence or you talk to him in your thoughts but he physically does not answer back. So you rely on your beliefs to get you to believe. So to a non believer it looks like you may be a little bit delusional. I'm just calling it as how *I* see it.

Also, i don't like this one road to God way. Because you know, if say Islamic people got it right then you're all fucked. I mean its this self rightiousness like 'i'm right, im a chosen one, and if you don't listen and do what i say - you're going to hell'
Along those lines, i don't like a religion (ive said this before) that FORGIVES bad sins. I don't want God to forgive a peadophile or a murderer or a dirty little priest. Why should the be given forgiveness because they are weak? Screw that.
I think its stupid to think me, who is a law abiding citizen trying to make my lfe and the peoples' lives around me better would go to hell over a serial murder whos a 'born again christian'
its just so hypocritical.
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Old 10-31-2006, 02:13 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Which ones? I know that Catholics used to believe this but I don't they do anymore (not sure).

Every other Christian denomination I am familiar with teaches that once we accept Christ ALL sins are forgiven - past, present, and future.
Well like every denomination, even within the denomination it's sometimes hard to get a consistent answer. I do believe that most of Catholisism still believes that. I know Lutherns do...

And your take on all past, present, and future sins being forgiven is quite an oversimplification, in fact some would say flat out wrong. Many Christians believe that you still have to continually ask for the forgiveness of your sin through prayer. One of the reasons why some consider suicide to be unforgivable is, you aren't around to ask for forgiveness.

I'm not saying this is my belief, I just found it to be an interesting statement.


Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

BVS - I am sure you mean well, but you seem a little hostile toward Christianity...and a little misinformed.
If I sound hostile, it's because of the perversion of Scripture I've seen over the past decade of my life. I've studied Christianity and the Bible very extensively and in fact was a youth minister for several years. So misinformed? I don't think so.

I find your concern quite interesting to be honest. For you've had a hard time answering a lot of my questions.

I ask questions so that people will actually think and not just feed me back some information someone told them once.

Devil's advocate can be a strong device.
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Old 10-31-2006, 02:24 AM   #96
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar




I find your concern quite interesting to be honest. For you've had a hard time answering a lot of my questions.
If it appears I avoid questions, it is only because of time constraints and the desire to keep a thread on topic. Sometimes I know a specific answer to a specific question will quite simply take the conversation way of course. I think we can agree that I have spent quite a bit of time answering many of the questions asked of me. Unless I was logged in as a full time job - I don't see how I could answer more than I have.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

I ask questions so that people will actually think and not just feed me back some information someone told them once.

Devil's advocate can be a strong device.
True. I agree. Somewhat...
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Old 10-31-2006, 02:26 AM   #97
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Originally posted by AEON


If it appears I avoid questions, it is only because of time constraints and the desire to keep a thread on topic. Sometimes I know a specific answer to a specific question will quite simply take the conversation way of course. I think we can agree that I have spent quite a bit of time answering many of the questions asked of me. Unless I was logged in as a full time job - I don't see how I could answer more than I have.

OK

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Old 10-31-2006, 06:53 AM   #98
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Originally posted by Irvine511




i understand that you're operating from a different starting point than i am, but in these words seem to be an assumption that, yes, there is a God, that, yes, i am worshipping the right onw, and that, yes, there are people who aren't yet aware of what i know but that's part of my mission is to spread His (and even using the capital "H" is quite assertive) word.
If someone really believes something, I have a hard time understanding how they can "pretend" not to really believe it so they don't offend someone. If I really believe that God is a real entity, and I am worshiping the right one etc, how can I say anything else and still have any kind of integrity? Granted, I can add the disclaimer "but I could be wrong" to all statements of faith, but do you really think that's necessary?

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
some people simply look around and through simply clarity and logic don't think that God exists.
See now I'd be really interested in hearing someone with this particular point of view. I'm sure they're out there, I just haven't heard from anyone yet. So far everyone I've talked to who doesn't believe claims logic and simple clarity, but if you dig even a little you'll find there is generally ALSO a strong feeling of revulsion for belief. Which in my mind muddies the waters a bit. I would be fascinated to hear from someone who says--wow, it sounds so great and so appealing. I would LOVE it if all that were true. But logically I can't reconcile it. What you usually hear is "this religious nonsense is absolutely revolting and disgusting. But of course I only reject it on logic and reason." I don't know. . .I just have a harder time buying that. Now I do understand it because when they describe what they understand religion and God to be about I'm with them. It sounds pretty sick to me too. If that's what I thought faith or belief was all about, I'd reject it too. I suppose any logical person would have to.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
and the posts by Christians that rankle me most are those that are assertive of a reality that they feel should be plainly obvious to all, and if you don't see it it's because you've just misunderstood something.
I find posts by non-believers holding the same type of attitude to be annoying also though. I guess arrogance is no respecter of religion (or lack thereof).

I do concede that I have a hard time understanding how a believer can feel that their faith should be "plainly obvious to all." And yet you are right, there are some believers who do take this stance.
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Old 10-31-2006, 06:58 AM   #99
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nathan1977, I'm pretty sure we've disagreed on other issues and other threads, but I've really enjoyed your posts here. Great stuff.
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Old 10-31-2006, 09:26 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Hrmmmm

argh, its just so i dont know foreign to me to read this. I just honestly 100% cannot understand someone believing in God. I do believe this is because you are brought up this way in a religious family and was conditioned to believe this way. I was brought up with choices, everything laid bare and i got to choose, and i chose (to me) the logical path. You have to at least see that not believing is some much easier to do then to believe.

You want to know why I don't like or respect christianity

1. Firstly the views on homosexuality and life and conception i completely disagree with
You do realize that medical science and biology pretty much back up the idea that a fetus is a human life, don't you? Have you ever looked at a detailed fetal development timeline? Have you ever read the studies of embryologists?

Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
2. That absolute hatred some people have for 'sinners' and the way they go about it
Please provide for me examples of what you consider "hatred for sinners" from regular Christian members of this forum. I'm not talking the oddballs that pop in and say something really crazy every once in a while; I'm talking about people who are regular psoters.

You do realize that many of the serial killers either don't believe in God or have expressed hatred for him, don't you?

Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
3. The fact that you live your life by the words or someone you don't know, from a time a long time ago. Not one of you has see or spoken to god. Yes you may say you've felt a presence or you talk to him in your thoughts but he physically does not answer back. So you rely on your beliefs to get you to believe. So to a non believer it looks like you may be a little bit delusional. I'm just calling it as how *I* see it.
Not that I need proof to prove God to myself, but I do have it. One day, God (or his angel) clearly told me to do something that I wasn't even considering doing. I argued with him a little, but when I obeyed, it saved my life or at least saved me from serious injury.

Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Also, i don't like this one road to God way. Because you know, if say Islamic people got it right then you're all fucked. I mean its this self rightiousness like 'i'm right, im a chosen one, and if you don't listen and do what i say - you're going to hell'
I think that most of us don't say Christ is the only way to make ourselves appear righteous. We say it because Christ said it, and we don't want others to go down what we think is the wrong path.

Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Along those lines, i don't like a religion (ive said this before) that FORGIVES bad sins. I don't want God to forgive a peadophile or a murderer or a dirty little priest. Why should the be given forgiveness because they are weak? Screw that.
I think its stupid to think me, who is a law abiding citizen trying to make my lfe and the peoples' lives around me better would go to hell over a serial murder whos a 'born again christian'
its just so hypocritical.
Would you really be unhappy that someone has turned his life around and has been saved from hell? Really?

You've got the same choice. You are not excluded. Christ's salvation is freely available to anyone.
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Old 10-31-2006, 12:00 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Many gods who demand sacrifice. Many gods who command righteousness. Many gods fueled only by anger or fatalism.

But how many gods came to save us? How many gods committed suicide to do so?

the reason you think your god is so special is because that's what you've been taught; the exclusivity of a diety is little more than assumed cultural supremacy.

God speaks to everyone in a language they can understand.
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Old 10-31-2006, 12:19 PM   #102
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No, Irvine. The reason I think my god is so special is because He has met me in the times and the places when no one else did.

"Why I believe" would be a very interesting thread. As would "why I don't believe," but since you and Amy seem to have trouble with why anyone would believe, it would be interesting to see why.
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Old 10-31-2006, 12:20 PM   #103
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Originally posted by maycocksean
nathan1977, I'm pretty sure we've disagreed on other issues and other threads, but I've really enjoyed your posts here. Great stuff.
Likewise, may.
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Old 10-31-2006, 12:31 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy

I just honestly 100% cannot understand someone believing in God.
I don't think anyone here is demanding that you understand it, Amy. I'm certainly not. I agree with maycocksean's post -- while it's my personal belief that God is available to all, His work freely evident in the faces of the people around us, not everyone sees it as so. But not understanding and not respecting are two different things. Jesus gave respect to those who disagreed with him -- I try to do the same, and I just hope the same respect is afforded to me.
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Old 10-31-2006, 01:43 PM   #105
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I'm not Amy, but I hope you don't mind me addressing some of these points, despite that. From what I've read, she and I share similar views, although I'd term myself more of an agnostic than an athiest.


Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


You do realize that medical science and biology pretty much back up the idea that a fetus is a human life, don't you? Have you ever looked at a detailed fetal development timeline? Have you ever read the studies of embryologists?
Honestly, I don't care what they say about when life begins. It's my body, my future, and my business. Further, that life is not self-supporting for many months, it would depend on me to provide it life. Neither right-wingers, nor religious people whose beliefs I don't share in the first place have the right to force me into what is such a huge and personal decision. For the record, I was once in a position where I could have considered abortion. Relatively young and unmarried, and it never even crossed my mind. However, I will fight tooth and nail to have the right, and for other women to have the same option.

Quote:
Not that I need proof to prove God to myself, but I do have it. One day, God (or his angel) clearly told me to do something that I wasn't even considering doing. I argued with him a little, but when I obeyed, it saved my life or at least saved me from serious injury.
See, to me, that's not proof of God, that's following a hunch that appeared out of nowhere, for some reason. There are so many things that occur in our daily lives that are just beyond our conscious perception, but on some level, our brains do make note of them, and sometimes follow up on them, and sometimes they prove to be right. I would ask you this (I don't expect you to answer, just something to consider) - how many of these experiences/hunches/"messages" have you received and acted upon, and nothing's come of them? I'm betting a lot. However, humans are very good at self-delusion, as shown by the confirmatory bias phenomenon, whereby we tend to look for and recall information that proves us right, and discount and forget information that doesn't fit in with our expectations. The same principle - every once in a while, someone will happen to have a dream that foretells a future event that occurs, and they take this as evidence of their psychic ability. How many dreams do they have though, that don't?

I had what might be perceived by religious people as something similar to your experience. One night just before the first Christmas after my dad's death, I got into my car, a new vehicle I'd bought since his death, and as I was starting it, the scent of him surrounding me was overwhelming. A visit from beyond to comfort me, because he knew that the holiday season was very difficult for me? That IS awfully appealing. However, I think it was a random olefactory memory that popped up, because I'd been thinking of him a lot.

All that said, you're fully entitled to believe that you received a religious warning. My point is just that there are alternative, logical explanations for most so-called religious experiences, and that's why they don't hold much water for non-believers.

Quote:
I think that most of us don't say Christ is the only way to make ourselves appear righteous. We say it because Christ said it, and we don't want others to go down what we think is the wrong path.
See, I understand that there is historical record of his life, and all that, but really...how do you know he said that? Because an ancient text tells you he did? Sorry, I need more that that before I'd base my life on a book that was written by man. That's not even to mention that all other religious texts proclaim to hold the ultimate truth, whose believers believe it just as vehemently as you do yours. They can't all be right, can they? This is particularly problematic for me when you look at things historically, and see all the ulterior motives that man had for stifling paganism and promoting christianity. It's not like there was nothing to gain from it. And besides, we see evidence every day, just by looking in the media, of facts being distorted to suit the purposes of individuals or groups. As a critical thinker, I don't accept but a small portion of what I hear currently, and that's having to do with events that are occuring now, so why would I accept a long-ago written book?

Quote:
Would you really be unhappy that someone has turned his life around and has been saved from hell? Really?

You've got the same choice. You are not excluded. Christ's salvation is freely available to anyone.
Again, that's assuming that we believe it's real. For those of us who don't, it makes as much sense to seek salvation from sprites, fairies, bogeymen, or any other supernatural being that doesn't exist.


Not trying to be argumentative, nor change your mind. I don't think this thread will change anyone's mind. Just offering the perspective of a non-believer.
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