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Old 11-03-2006, 04:49 PM   #151
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Originally posted by martha


That's it? That's the example, in all human history, of how nonChristians are screwing up?
No. That's only one recent example. The history of mankind pretty much speaks for itself. If anything proves our depravity - it is history.

The Crusades are another example of Europe and the Middle East living out a nonChristian system.

Christ never commanded anyone to kill infidels.
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Old 11-03-2006, 04:52 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

Christ never commanded anyone to kill infidels.
There are times I wonder if some Christians think he commanded them to annoy infidels to death though....
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Old 11-03-2006, 04:53 PM   #153
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Originally posted by indra


There are times I wonder if some Christians think he commanded them to annoy infidels to death though....
It is an implied task
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Old 11-03-2006, 05:55 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

The Crusades are another example of Europe and the Middle East living out a nonChristian system.

Christ never commanded anyone to kill infidels.
Yet they claimed to be Christian, just like the right wing does nowadays.
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Old 11-03-2006, 05:58 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


It is an implied task
And you are doing a mighty fine job of it too!
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Old 11-03-2006, 06:53 PM   #156
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^

Quote:
Originally posted by TheQuiet1
If none of you mind me saying so, I think this thread has spiralled off-topic. Correct me if I'm wrong but surely the point of the original post was to question the use of quoting Scripture in FYM threads when it's irrelevant to many people here who aren't Christians. Yet instead it seems to have descended into the usual Religion versus Atheism free-for-all. I always find such discussions both exhausting and pointless. It all boils down to one simple thing:

You either believe or you don't.

So when it's that simple what's there to discuss? The answer is usually nothing. All that usually happens is everyone ends up feeling they have to justify their beliefs. And why on Earth should they? Why on Earth should I have to justify my own beliefs to you only to have them dismissed as stupid and baseless? And why on Earth should you have to justify your beliefs to me only to have them dismissed as immoral and have me crying, "You'll rot in Hell you fecking Heathens" whilst beating you to death with a hefty Pulpit Bible? The answer is you shouldn't.

People then tend to get all tetchy and upset (as all faith and none really is a very important thing to most people), things get a bit heated and personal and as a result before the thread just ends up getting locked.

So to go all the way back to what I think was the original question:

I'm totally with U2Dem on this. Faith is an incredibly personal thing. Perhaps it's the denomination I belong to but I've always felt that being a good Christian isn't about applying your beliefs to everyone else's behaviour. It's about living the best Christian life you can, nevermind about what 'er next door is up to! Yes, Christianity is an evangelical religion but at my chapel we've been told time and again that the way to convert people (it sounds sinister, I know) is to simply live a good Christian life yourself and set a good example to others. Then when people see how content you are, it might generate an interest in religion within them. You specifically DO NOT try to press-gang people into becoming a Christian. I know all the atheists are probably thinking such an idea is ridiculous and some Christians perhaps disagree with it but it makes sense to me (remember after all, that the 10 Commandments are not: "Everyone shall not" but "YOU shall not") and is one of the many, many reasons why I'm finding so much more to love about my denomination than dislike.

So with all this in mind Dazzling Amy I think I agree with you. Especially with the thread in question it was inappropriate to quote Scripture. My religion might influence my moral code (as do many things I hasten add. I'm sure you'll all be relieved to know that I do have a mind of my own!) but to express my views and opinions purely through quoting Scripture, I think that just puts people's backs up unnecessarily. It sort of alienates non-believers from the discussion really, doesn't it? Because what can non-believers really argue back with that isn't going to come across as hostile to religion?

Ick, I've spend so long typing this out and deleting other bits and then retyping it again then deleting it again, and I still don't think I've put across my feelings accurately. So I'm sorry if the first part of my post comes across as condescending and I'm sorry if the second part is confusing and doesn't make a great deal of sense but frankly, I just want to stop editing this bloody post and send it!!!
Great post

It's curious, the only time I ever think about God, religion, faith, yada yada, is whenever I come into FYM. The other 23 hours, 55 minutes of the day, the thought never crosses my mind. I think that's the answer for a happy life, don't you?
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Old 11-03-2006, 07:12 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally posted by blueeyedgirl

It's curious, the only time I ever think about God, religion, faith, yada yada, is whenever I come into FYM. The other 23 hours, 55 minutes of the day, the thought never crosses my mind. I think that's the answer for a happy life, don't you?
It's ok dear, we all know you're a heathen.
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Old 11-04-2006, 06:51 AM   #158
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Someone like AEON and 80's (and I'm grouping them here somewhat unfairly, but as a composite) faces quintuple challenges (more or less dependent on what premises the person he is arguing with accepts) Quoting scripture is meaningless unless basic premises are accepted.

To make a rational nonbeliever see credibility in his interpretation of scripture, he must:

1. Be able to refute alternative scenarios to present God as
the only logical alternative or at least present it as a logically
strong alternative.
2. Convince that his God is the only true God.
3. Convince that Jesus is the Son of God.
4. Convince that the Bible is inerrant.
5. Convince that his interpretation of the scripture is inerrant
due to some intervention of The Holy Spirit.

If he fails at any of these steps, his interpretations will carry little weight with anyone who does not accept any or all of the premises. The burden is on him as he is the one trying to convince. Pushing someone to defend their point of view and claiming victory if they cannot is not successful argument. It may highlight weaknesses in the other's logic, but does not prove strength in his.

And convincing a former believer turned agnostic/atheist is a whole other ball of wax.

The same burden is on the nonbeliever who wishes to convince
a believer that there is no God. But frankly, I don't see much energy being expended to CONVINCE there is no God--except as a defensive reaction--therefore no substantial burden exists. A_W has taken on that burden. Others may have, but my head is spinning.

I have consistently used the word "convince" as opposed to "prove" for obvious reasons.

On a personal level, I'm not taking any position on this debate. I don't know. It's not important to me at this point that I believe one way or the other in the existence of God.
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Old 11-04-2006, 07:14 AM   #159
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Why do i need to convince anyone there is no god? For the religious who believe there is no way they'd give up their beliefs for me saying anything.

but to convince there is no god. Well there is no proof there is a god, nothing has ever been show to be from god, or things happen because of god. We have a book written so long ago by not even the god himself but by some people who "knew" him. Religion seems to be made up of people telling other people what they're doing wrong, and being over confident that they're the right religion. and basically, religion has been behind nearly every war, and terrorism activities since the beginning of "religion"

I want no part of it.
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Old 11-04-2006, 07:29 AM   #160
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I'm sorry if you misunderstood me. I don't see any need or requirement to convince anyone there is no God. I see no illogic in atheism. I was only pointing out that there are more believers on board trying to convince people there is a God than there are nonbelievers trying to convince believers--a demographic observation.

I'm only saying that if your intent were to convince, to change someone's belief, you would be under the same argumentative burden--step by step with obviously different premises. If that is not your intent, you have no burden.

In my original post, I was specifically noting that quoting scripture to people who do not believe is irrelevant. To take it to a point where it is relevant, several hurdles must be jumped and it is not a given you will be able to make someone jump those hurdles.


I agree that the overwhelming amount of posts (if not posters) based on theology in one form or another interrupts debate from secular point of view and almost always derails it, which is why I rarely participate in any thread that started out secular and turned religious. I get bored.

So, simply, I am agreeing with your frustration.

(And TheQuiet1 had a remarkable post).
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Old 11-04-2006, 07:58 AM   #161
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Oh i was thinking you were saying that non believers arn't trying to change peoples ideas very hard, and i was aying we don't have too, and don't really want to, just want to be a voice in a sea of "scripture" and bluster.

but thanks for agreeing. I must read posts more properly in future
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Old 11-04-2006, 08:18 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
yeah its a public school so the RE "teacher" isn't actually a teacher, but a person from the local church. They are extremly religious and seem desperate to do as much religious stuff in the half an hour a week they get. I was also surprised with how she spoke about their questions. Like sayign that there is no way but god's way is very overbearing i think!
First and foremost, your opening post was an absolute stunner and I agree wholeheartedly...post of the year!

And what a thread this has been! A joy to read, and without any real viciousness....nice and diplomatic....

Re RE, I can't believe these classes are still going! We used to have a "nice ol' Lady" from some local church come and preach to us back when I was an impressionable young chap in an Australian public primary school....it was disgraceful, if you are gonna have Religious Education, let it be Education about all religions and not just the Christianity!

It's hard to comprehend how people constantly whinge about "political correctness gone mad", when obviously political correctness hasn't gone far enough!


Personally, I'm agnostic. I don't NEED to believe there is a God so I don't. Others can do so, and to me it might seem utterly insane, but whatever floats your boat...

There appears to be too many ambiguities and inconsistencies with the philosophies that are put forward by religious texts, so I just ignore 'em and try and develop my own values from what I interpret as being common sense...

The sweet ol' ethic of reciprocity, which many religious folk do preach, yet don't always practice...

The ethic of reciprocity is all I need and what I live by. All the rest of the jargon can just shove it...

And I do think that being a Melburnian (as you are Amy) does make it a little awkward to read all these references to scripture. It just seems as if Americans are more inclined to reference them and have faith in God or live through Jesus or whatever. I don't encounter many hardcore Christians or people who actually read the bible or go to church, so FYM is a very alien place for me (and perhaps other Aussies) in that respect.
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Old 11-04-2006, 08:23 AM   #163
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Oh i was thinking you were saying that non believers arn't trying to change peoples ideas very hard, and i was aying we don't have too, and don't really want to, just want to be a voice in a sea of "scripture" and bluster.

but thanks for agreeing. I must read posts more properly in future
Rereading my own original post, I thought that might be what you were thinking. I should have made that clearer. There was ambiguity there, but since there was no ambiguity in my own head about that particular post, I didn't catch it.
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Old 11-04-2006, 08:50 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by intedomine







And I do think that being a Melburnian (as you are Amy) does make it a little awkward to read all these references to scripture.
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Old 11-04-2006, 10:56 AM   #165
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Originally posted by INDY500


Bill Hicks went to my High School. Used to go see him all the time at clubs in Houston in the early and mid 80's. Check out my "location", third mall from the sun. Sound familiar?


I miss Hicks all the time.
Wow. Thats pretty cool. Often the question gets asked if you could bring one person back from the dead who would it be? loads of people always say John Lennon or Elvis ect.. but i would bring back Bill Hicks without a doubt. It's amazing how relevant his material still is, particularly with the Iraq war.

That guy had vision and insight beyond most.

"Making marajuana illegal, a plant that grows naturally on our planet, is like saying God made a mistake when he made the world"
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