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Old 12-17-2004, 06:37 AM   #61
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I guess a key question here is do you believe God can reveal himself to different people in different ways.

If you believe that God is the creator of ALL people, and the God of everything, then why would God offer to be "exclusive" to the wandering nomads of the Middle East.

Are we this biased as to believe that the creator of all did not participate in the rest of creation? God exclusively just spent time working on the Middle East?

Or is it possible God spent time with the other people as part of the creation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you believe that Baptism has absolutely NOTHING to do with the person being baptized and everything to do with the POWER of God, then it only makes sense that God chooses us, not us choosing God.
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Old 12-17-2004, 06:39 AM   #62
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


If you treat the Bible as literature, then you have a strong argument here.

If you treat the Bible as a literally accurate book and ignore the fact that historical evidence demonstrates otherwise it stregnthens it?
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Old 12-17-2004, 06:54 AM   #63
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


So sacrament Babptism is dependant on the person chosing to be Baptized?
Why are you even asking this when I answered it in my post?

I shared with you my views on baptism. What else can I say?
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Old 12-17-2004, 07:07 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I guess a key question here is do you believe God can reveal himself to different people in different ways.

If you believe that God is the creator of ALL people, and the God of everything, then why would God offer to be "exclusive" to the wandering nomads of the Middle East.

Are we this biased as to believe that the creator of all did not participate in the rest of creation? God exclusively just spent time working on the Middle East?

Or is it possible God spent time with the other people as part of the creation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you believe that Baptism has absolutely NOTHING to do with the person being baptized and everything to do with the POWER of God, then it only makes sense that God chooses us, not us choosing God.
No God did not just spend time working in the Middle East. That was the point of the Great Commission, go into all the world and preach the Gospel. From the Book of Mark chapter 16 :
15He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

You really need to define baptism here. If you are speaking in terms of merely being dunked then that has everything to do with the person choosing to do that. If you are speaking in terms of being baptized in the Spirit then that is solely through the power of God. We are not baptized in our spirit but in His, and that occurrs once we have choosen to accept Him into our hearts. It is a fairly simple concept. Sorry you are having difficulty understanding it. Maybe it is how I have put it forth?

Carrie
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Old 12-17-2004, 07:33 AM   #65
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He was the way the truth and the life for the Jewish tradition. If Christ had walked into the middle of Africa and said those words they would not have meant diddly to them. In the context of Christ trying to reclaim the temple, the true intent of the "law" he is the way the truth and the life.
Well again that is the point of the Great Commission, to go and preach the Gospel to all the world including the middle of Africa where it would not have meant diddly.

Jesus did not speak of this in terms of reclaiming the temple! He was speaking to His disciples about who He is and what was going to happen. The chapter preceeding 14 deals with Jesus fortelling His betrayal, crucifixion etc. His disciples were understandably troubled by what He was saying so He told them not to worry, to trust him. From John 14:

5Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”


None of the text surrounding this passage make ANY mention of Jewish law. Jesus is talking about being with the Father again. Where you get that this is in regards to reclaiming the temple and meant ONLY for those following Jewish tradition is beyond me.
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Old 12-17-2004, 09:46 AM   #66
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
If you believe that Baptism has absolutely NOTHING to do with the person being baptized and everything to do with the POWER of God, then it only makes sense that God chooses us, not us choosing God.
Baptism is only an external sign of an internal change. It is like wearing a wedding ring. Wearing a wedding ring doesn't make you married. A married person taking off a wedding ring doesn't make them unmarried.
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Old 12-17-2004, 09:51 AM   #67
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
I guess a key question here is do you believe God can reveal himself to different people in different ways.

If you believe that God is the creator of ALL people, and the God of everything, then why would God offer to be "exclusive" to the wandering nomads of the Middle East.

Are we this biased as to believe that the creator of all did not participate in the rest of creation? God exclusively just spent time working on the Middle East?

Or is it possible God spent time with the other people as part of the creation.
Wow. Quite a few good questions.

1. I cannot say that God is limited in how He reveals Himself. At the same time, I cannot claim that God has revealed Himself to me in a way that is inconsistant with established revelation: the Bible. To say otherwise is create my own god.

2. God, in His Sovereignty, can pick and choose who He wants. The fact He picked the Hebrews does not limit Him in any way.

3. How do you get to this conclusion? God's overall plan is for all people. He elected to start with the Hebrews.

4. Romans 1:19-20 "since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
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Old 12-17-2004, 09:52 AM   #68
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
He was the way the truth and the life for the Jewish tradition. If Christ had walked into the middle of Africa and said those words they would not have meant diddly to them. In the context of Christ trying to reclaim the temple, the true intent of the "law" he is the way the truth and the life.
On what basis do you limit Jesus' words?

The exact same could be said of all the other commands that we want to follow - it was only for the Jewish tradition.
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Old 12-17-2004, 10:22 AM   #69
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Originally posted by thacraic


Why are you even asking this when I answered it in my post?

I shared with you my views on baptism. What else can I say?
Maybe I wanted clarification...thanks for answering.
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Old 12-17-2004, 10:26 AM   #70
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Originally posted by thacraic
[B]

Well again that is the point of the Great Commission, to go and preach the Gospel to all the world including the middle of Africa where it would not have meant diddly.

Jesus did not speak of this in terms of reclaiming the temple! He was speaking to His disciples about who He is and what was going to happen. The chapter preceeding 14 deals with Jesus fortelling His betrayal, crucifixion etc. His disciples were understandably troubled by what He was saying so He told them not to worry, to trust him. From John 14:

5Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”


None of the text surrounding this passage make ANY mention of Jewish law. Jesus is talking about being with the Father again. Where you get that this is in regards to reclaiming the temple and meant ONLY for those following Jewish tradition is beyond me.
If you think he was put to death for other reasons than the threat he presented to those in power in the temple, then we have a serious difference as to what was going on .
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Old 12-17-2004, 10:37 AM   #71
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
[B]

Wow. Quite a few good questions.]
Thank you!

[Q]1. I cannot say that God is limited in how He reveals Himself. At the same time, I cannot claim that God has revealed Himself to me in a way that is inconsistant with established revelation: the Bible. To say otherwise is create my own god.[/Q]

So then if God were to reveal himself to a Native American in a way that is inconsistent with their Revelation, who is to say who is right? To them you have created your own God.

[Q]2. God, in His Sovereignty, can pick and choose who He wants. The fact He picked the Hebrews does not limit Him in any way.[/Q]

I agree with your first sentence. If God can pick and choose whom he wants, it has NOTHING to do with us. It has to do with God. The fact that we cling to a theism that was produced in an ancient culture that saw the world differently most certainly does limit us.

[Q]3. How do you get to this conclusion? God's overall plan is for all people. He elected to start with the Hebrews.[/Q]

Maybe he didn't. Maybe he elected to start with human beings. Maybe the Hebrews who wrote the book thought they were chosen, thus affecting the theism that has evolved. Maybe it is time to look at the book from the standpoint of humanity.

If God created humanity, all of it, then why would God pick one race over another? If you believe God loves all of us, it would make sense that God was not out to show favoritism to the Hebrews? Maybe because the Hebrews wrote the book?
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Old 12-17-2004, 10:38 AM   #72
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On what basis do you limit Jesus' words?

The exact same could be said of all the other commands that we want to follow - it was only for the Jewish tradition.
Commands and codes of laws were givento other people around the world. Every culture has its codes and laws and culture. Maybe there is a commonality in the revelation of these.
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Old 12-17-2004, 10:44 AM   #73
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AS for Baptism, I completely disagree with any notion that man has anything at all do do with the power of the sacrament.

I have reasons for questioning about Baptism, because if you believe that the power of Baptism comes from God then you might believe as I do, that God is not here for one select group of people. God chose to create humanity. God chose us.

How does this relate to this thread? I asked questions about God the creator. God chose to create everything, including people who are not Jewish or Christian. While they may not be a part of the Christian/Jewish tradition, they are still Gods people, and no act of rejection of God can change that. God does not abandon. Much like Baptism, God has the power, not man.
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Old 12-17-2004, 10:56 AM   #74
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I agree with your first sentence. If God can pick and choose whom he wants, it has NOTHING to do with us. It has to do with God. The fact that we cling to a theism that was produced in an ancient culture that saw the world differently most certainly does limit us.
Perhaps God does intend on limiting us.

[Q]3. How do you get to this conclusion? God's overall plan is for all people. He elected to start with the Hebrews.[/Q]

Maybe he didn't. Maybe he elected to start with human beings. Maybe the Hebrews who wrote the book thought they were chosen, thus affecting the theism that has evolved. Maybe it is time to look at the book from the standpoint of humanity.

If God created humanity, all of it, then why would God pick one race over another? If you believe God loves all of us, it would make sense that God was not out to show favoritism to the Hebrews? Maybe because the Hebrews wrote the book? [/B][/QUOTE]

It was unfair to Esau and Ishmael. But that is our concept of fairness. For God, He didn't have to pick anybody.

And if we say Hebrews wrote the Bible (or practically all of it), why, as Gentiles, hold to any of it? If we only use portions of Scripture, not as authoritative, but to support our own notions of what makes a "good person", then we fall to a 'might makes right' (or the loudest group) form of religion.

Or why would a Hebrew writer say that God loves all of us?
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Old 12-17-2004, 11:22 AM   #75
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Maybe I wanted clarification...thanks for answering.
You're welcome.
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