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Old 12-16-2004, 02:32 PM   #31
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


I guess the argument before God is: do any of us deserve our lives?
Some of the things you say scare me.
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Old 12-16-2004, 02:44 PM   #32
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It scares me too, but I think nbcrusader is on point here. Cf. Romans 6:23.
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Old 12-16-2004, 05:21 PM   #33
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Isn't that what was done?

Isn't the Old Testament God somewhat tainted by the view of the "CHOSEN" people?

Was the plague sent by God to wipe out their enemies?
If you treat the Bible as literature, then you have a strong argument here.

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The Puritains believed that God did this to the Native Americans here in MAssachusetts. He "cleared" the land for them so they could settle.

They fashioned their own belief about God.
Self-declared divine providence is always a problem.
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Old 12-16-2004, 05:24 PM   #34
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


If you treat the Bible as literature, then you have a strong argument here.



Self-declared divine providence is always a problem.
How is one self declared and not the other, just because one's written in the Bible?
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Old 12-16-2004, 05:25 PM   #35
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So God changed and became everyones God when?

If he was not the "God" of the Egyptians, how would you expect an Egyptian to convert to Christianity if we believe the Old testament to be correct, that God did horrible things to them?
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Old 12-16-2004, 05:40 PM   #36
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


If he was not the "God" of the Egyptians, how would you expect an Egyptian to convert ....

Could that be why he sent Mohammed?

A more user-friendly faith for the people you speak of.
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Old 12-16-2004, 05:41 PM   #37
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Wouldn't eliminating the "THESISM" that Spong speaks of make it easier to convert people?
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Old 12-16-2004, 06:06 PM   #38
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Something I want to point out is this.

Martin Luther, when writing his 95 theses used the Bible as his foundation. Spong pulls from many sources. I think that says something as well.
this may have been the most fantastic statement that has ever been made on these boards! in the words of avalanche play by play man peter mcnabb "THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!"

it says a whole lot! it says that luther realized that God had revealed himself to us in his Word. it says that the changes luther envisioned were changes to bring the church back in line Biblically. he saw that the church had diverted from the Word, and needed to be set back on the right track.

spong on the other hand, sees that the church is out of step with the rest of the world (which it should be!) and consults his own thoughts and feelings, and science (though he only makes broad references to science [read c.s. lewis's miracles, and you'll find he argues that science does not preclude the existence of God]). he basically discounts whatever in the Bible does not fit into his world view, and bends other passages to make them fit. the church should not be conformed to the ways of the world!

here's what Christ says about the relationship of disciples to the world: "if you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. as it is, you do not belong to the world. that is why the world hates you." john 15:19. in john 16:11 Christ calls satan the "prince of the world" and says that he is condemned. obviously it is not desirable for a Christian to conform himself to the ways of the world, its very prince is condemned, as so are all of his subjects. however, if one follows Christ, the world will hate them and persecute them.

my final thoughts on spong. he is an angry bitter man. his massive ego prevents him from thinking clearly. he finds himself unable to believe in God, and therefor is of the opinion that if he can't believe it, no one else should either. his basic premise is that Christians should became atheists, but still call themselves Christians, and this is how Christianity will be saved.
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Old 12-16-2004, 06:17 PM   #39
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You have met Bishop Spong? You know him to be an angry bitter man how?

Why? Becasue he dares challenge dogma?

AS I said earlier in the thread, I do not agree with his stance in the area of these twelve things, but dang it all, I am not so stubborn to not recognize there is some truth to his comments.
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Old 12-16-2004, 06:19 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
So God changed and became everyones God when?

If he was not the "God" of the Egyptians, how would you expect an Egyptian to convert to Christianity if we believe the Old testament to be correct, that God did horrible things to them?
he was certainly not the God of the egyptians, if only by the fact that they rejected Him. they did not acknowledge the God of the israelites, they refused to worship Him, and they worshipped their own Gods. he was not the "God" of the egyptians, because they didn't want him to be!
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Old 12-16-2004, 06:21 PM   #41
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So God is not your God if you reject him?

If you believe God to be the creator of all, he is indeed their God if they reject him or not.
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Old 12-16-2004, 06:22 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
You have met Bishop Spong? You know him to be an angry bitter man how?

Why? Becasue he dares challenge dogma?

AS I said earlier in the thread, I do not agree with his stance in the area of these twelve things, but dang it all, I am not so stubborn to not recognize there is some truth to his comments.
this is how ex-bishop spong presents himself in his writings. he does more than challenge dogma, he throws out the basic tenents of faith laid out by Christ.
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Old 12-16-2004, 06:23 PM   #43
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Right.....

And how many of Bishop Spongs books have you read in their entirety to come this conclusion?
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Old 12-16-2004, 06:24 PM   #44
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
this is how ex-bishop spong presents himself in his writings. he does more than challenge dogma, he throws out the basic tenents of faith laid out by Christ.

Well, please, deal with every one of the twelve points, and show me how Christ layed them out.

I am open minded.

LOL....ex Bishop....um...ok
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Old 12-16-2004, 06:25 PM   #45
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
So God is not your God if you reject him?

If you believe God to be the creator of all, he is indeed their God if they reject him or not.
yep. that's what i said. of course he is their creator. he provides the very things for them that make their life possible, and they refuse to acknowledge his existence. they DON"T WANT GOD and in the end, God gives them what they want.
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