Reaching Out to Dems - Bushit

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Dreadsox said:
Believe me, I am not jumping up and down thrilled over this, but I am looking at the brite side..... He was suppposed to be the supreme court nominee....maybe he won't be now...:wink:

It's scary when not having that as an alternative is a good thing.

The problem with violating the Geneva Conventions is, as Colin Powell pointed out, if we don't adhere to the standards with enemy combatants, enemy combatants won't adhere to the standards when they capture our soldiers. It puts our soldiers at great risk to violate these conventions. Even if we are fighting a terrorist regime that may never adhere to standards, we are the United States and we should act like nobel fighters. I'm still not sure about where I lie when it comes to using torture techniques on suspected terrorists. But there is a difference between using torture to get answers and doing what we did in Gitmo and Abu Graiab. There was no reason we needed to torture those Iraqis like that. There is no way why we continue to keep thousands of prisoners in Gitmo without due process. We are the United States and as a strong and fair nation, we should be acting better than this.
 
MrsSpringsteen said:
Time Article

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101041122-782104,00.html?cnn=yes

Said a Republican: "If the Democrats want to attack the first Hispanic Attorney General, well, good luck to them. We'll be happy to take our share of that vote up to 50% next time "

Scary. Wonder if they know he won't be getting this job but are trying to divide the Hispanics. If that's the case, they are just sick for using Gonzales as a political football knowing full well that he won't be approved.
 
That person makes it sound like him being "attacked" has something to do w/ him being Hispanic

"Playing the race card?" :eyebrow:

I'm not saying every Republican is doing that of course
 
MrsSpringsteen said:
That person makes it sound like him being "attacked" has something to do w/ him being Hispanic

"Playing the race card?" :eyebrow:

I'm not saying every Republican is doing that of course

Perhaps it is returning the favor of those who play the race card. We often hear those measure a President's character by an analysis of the race & gender of those the President appoints to various positions.

The Gonzalez nomination neutralizes this aspect of politics.
 
I didn't like the man when I lived in Texas(he's a real asshole personally) and I really don't like the idea of him taking this position...but he's better than Ashcroft...but that's not saying much.:(
 
Quite frankly, I don't expect to particularly like any appointee of this Administration. I'm not surprised that I don't much care for this guy. C'est la vie.
 
http://207.44.245.159/article7593.htm

The Question of Torture: Open letter to Alberto Gonzales

More than 200 American religious leaders

12/23/2004

To add your name as a signer, write — james@votingcatholic.org

An Open Letter to Alberto R. Gonzales
Hon. Alberto R. Gonzales
Counsel to the President
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC 20500

Dear Mr. Gonzales,

We, the undersigned religious leaders, greet your nomination to be Attorney General of the United States with grave concern.

As a self-professed evangelical Christian, you surely know that all people are created in the image of God. You see it as a moral imperative to treat each human being with reverence and dignity. We invite you to affirm with us that we are all are made in the image of God every human being. We invite you to acknowledge that no legal category created by mere mortals can revoke that status. You understand that torture — the deliberate effort to undermine human dignity — is a grave sin and affront to God. You would not deny that the systemic use of torture on prisoners at Abu Ghraib was fundamentally immoral, as is the deliberate rendering of any detainee to authorities likely to commit torture.

We urge you to declare that any attempt to undermine international standards on torture, renditions, or habeas corpus is not only wrong but sinful. We are concerned that as White House counsel you have shown a troubling disregard for international laws against torture, for the legal rights of suspected "enemy combatants," and for the adverse consequences your decisions have had at home and abroad.

How could you have written a series of legal memos that disrespected international law and invited these abuses? How could you have justified the use of torture and disavowed protections for prisoners of war? How could you have referred to the Geneva Conventions as quaint and obsolete. We fear that your legal judgments have paved the way to torture and abuse.

We therefore call upon you
To denounce the use of torture under any circumstances;
To affirm, with the Supreme Court, that it is unconstitutional to imprison anyone designated as an "enemy combatant" for months without access to lawyers or the right to challenge their detentions in court;
To affirm the binding legality of the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war;
And to reject the practice of "extraordinary rendition," at home and abroad, by which terrorists suspects are sent to countries that practice torture for interrogation.

We believe, as you do, that the United States must be an example of moral leadership in the world community. However, the events at Abu Ghraib have gravely compromised Americas moral authority. We ask that you commit yourself as Attorney General to repairing that damage by articulating and enforcing legal policies that reject the use of torture, embrace and advance standards of international law, and honor the dignity of all of Gods creation.

With prayers for wisdom and grace,
[Affiliations noted for identification only]

Dr. George Hunsinger, Church Folks for a Better America
Joseph C. Hough, Jr., President, Union Theological Seminary
Bishop Thomas J. Gumbleton, Aux. Bishop, Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Detroit
....
 
I don't like religion used to legislate, but they certainly are allowed to express their opinion. Especially since this admin evokes reliogion and uses religious figures to further their agenda.
I find him aborrent on moral grounds, regardless of my religious affiliation.
 
http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/04/democrats.gonzales.ap/index.html

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Attorney General nominee Alberto Gonzales' confirmation hearing that begins Thursday may become more contentious because the White House has refused to provide copies of his memos on the questioning of terror suspects.

"We go into the hearing with some knowledge of what has occurred because of press reports or leaks but without the hard evidence that will either exonerate or implicate Judge Gonzales in this policy," complained Sen. Richard Durbin of Illinois, the Senate's No. 2 Democrat, on Monday
 
050108_periscope_hu.hsmall.jpg


2 Presidents now working for the common good.

see article below:

Jan. 17 issue - Four years ago George W. Bush used to call him "the shadow" and promised a fresh start by pledging to "uphold the honor and dignity" of the presidency. He even joked to late-night TV's David Letterman that one of his top 10 priorities in the White House would be to give the Oval Office "one heck of a scrubbing."



But when President Bush welcomed Bill Clinton into that same office last week, those barbs were ancient history. After Clinton remarked how much he liked the new Oval Office rug, Bush encouraged him to praise his interior designer—Laura. (He did.) Over lunch with the president's father, the compliments flowed the other way. When Bush 41 inquired whether Chelsea Clinton had marriage plans, Bush 43 declared how impressed he was with the former president's daughter.


For two men at opposite ends of the political spectrum, the relationship between the 43rd and 42nd presidents has grown surprisingly warm and personal over the last six months. Clinton endorsed Bush's approach to the tsunami catastrophe, defending him against criticism about his initial response as well as raising cash alongside the president's father. Friends and aides say the two men enjoy each other's company and, as fellow pros, respect each other's political talents.

The rapid thaw started with the unveiling of Clinton's official portrait in the White House in June, when Bush told his speechwriters he wanted to deliver something "very praiseworthy, warm, funny and short." During Clinton's recent health crisis, Bush called twice to share what one of the former president's aides called "good, funny conversations." And in November, at the opening of Clinton's presidential library in Little Rock, Ark., both the president and his father delivered praise that Clinton reveled in. Clinton even pulled aside Karl Rove, the architect of Bush's election success, to congratulate him.

While aides on both sides say there's still a political chasm between the two presidents, they also point to a common style: both are Southern politicians who love to woo crowds, and whose qualities were underestimated by Washington's establishment. There's also Bush's future membership in one of the smallest elites on the planet: the ex-presidents' club. "And they're members of an even more exclusive club—the two-termers," noted one senior administration official. "To go back to the people for affirmation and be there for eight years puts them in a different class." Bush's aides said the president is already thinking of his own presidential- library plans as well as his own role after 2008, as another relatively young ex-president.

Just don't expect the working partnership to extend to Hillary Clinton, whose supporters want her to run in four years. "Honestly, I don't think getting together with George Bush is what she needs," said one ex-Clinton aide. Friendships may blossom between ex-presidents, but presidential hopefuls live in a far more hostile world.

—Richard Wolffe, Tamara Lipper and Eleanor Clift

© 2005 Newsweek, Inc.
 
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Chopping off fingers- torture
inserting bamboo shoots under fingernails-torture
human pyramids- humiliation
50 lashes- torture
starvation-torture
dog leash on naked man- humiliation
beheading- brutal execution

Soldier in uniform- Geneva Convention
setting of roadside bomb killing your owm women and children then hiding among civilians- terrorist, not Geneva convention.

I'm sure OBL and Saddam will treat our POWs just fine if we're nice to theirs.

Publishing Abu Ghraib photos for the world to see months after the fact when an internal Pentagon investigation is already underway in order to bring a President down and harm the war effort? Thanks Mary Mapes, hope you made a buck or two from CBS. Didn't help your ratings though, did it?

I'm all for the press holding the government accountable. They have investigative reporting for that. (Although they didn't do too well investigating the forged documents, did they?). But they had to know full well the consequences to our nation that the release of those photos would cause.
 
drhark said:

I'm all for the press holding the government accountable. They have investigative reporting for that.

But they had to know full well the consequences to our nation that the release of those photos would cause.


Iraqi Victim Says U.S. Torture Worse That Saddam


Jan 11, 6:11 PM (ET)

U.S. Army SPC Charles Graner arrives for day two of his court martial at Fort Hood, Texas January...
Full Image



By Adam Tanner

FORT HOOD, Texas (Reuters) - A former inmate at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison forced by U.S. guards to masturbate in public and piled onto a pyramid of naked men said on Tuesday even Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein did not do such things.

The inmate testified at the court martial of reservist soldier Charles Graner, accused ringleader of guards who engaged in the abuse, which prompted outrage when pictures of the sexual humiliation were published around the world.

"I couldn't believe in the beginning that this could happen, but I wished I could kill myself because no one was there to stop it," Hussein Mutar, who was sent to Abu Ghraib accused of car theft, said in videotaped testimony.

"They were torturing us as though it was theater for them," he said, as the prosecution wound up its case against Graner on assault, dereliction of duty and other charges that could bring him up to 17 1/2 years in prison.

An obviously ill-at ease Mutar added: "I was extremely emotional because (even) Saddam didn't do this to us."

Graner and Pvt. Lynndie England, with whom he fathered a child and who is also facing a court-martial, became the faces of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal after they appeared smiling in photographs that showed degraded, naked prisoners.

Since the scandal erupted last year, the Bush administration has blamed it on a small group of soldiers.

But investigations have shown many prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan and at the U.S. Navy base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba also suffered abusive treatment after the government looked at ways to obtain more information in its war against terrorism.
 
I know showing your dick is infinitely worse than having the damn thing sawn off. I do of course wonder what experiences this individual had under Saddam that would allow him to make such a statement. There are plenty of Iraqi's and Arabs in general who see how preposterous this is when compared to what their own governments do.

Lets have the trials, lets put all the evidence on the table now.
 
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I love how Americans hold themselves to higher standards and would never compare themselves to Iraq until it comes to torture and then it's apples and apples.:ohmy:
 
at least CBS admits when it makes mistakes, roots out those accountable, and fires them.

unlike a certain administration who can't think of anything it's done wrong ...
 
drhark said:
Chopping off fingers- torture
inserting bamboo shoots under fingernails-torture
human pyramids- humiliation
50 lashes- torture
starvation-torture
dog leash on naked man- humiliation
beheading- brutal execution

Soldier in uniform- Geneva Convention
setting of roadside bomb killing your owm women and children then hiding among civilians- terrorist, not Geneva convention.



while i agree with your distinction based upon the soldier-in-uniform, we are finding out that a whole lot is going on in iraqi prisons beyond sexual humiliations.

i posted this in the War forum, but it applies here, i think (forgive me, moderators, if this is a transgression):

there is spiraling evidence we now have of the extent (and systemic nature) to which American troops toture in prisons in Iraq, i think that one of the remarkable features of this whole disgusting phenomenon is just how anti-Muslim these techniques are: sexual humiliation, rape, the force-feeding of pork, forcible pouring of liquor down an inmate's throat, wrapping someone in the Israeli flag, forcing inmates to kneel and pray and then kicking them in the head, and now placing duct tape over the mouth of someone reciting the Koran.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...6-2005Jan5.html


I also came across this first-hand sworn Red Cross deposition of an interrogation in Abu Ghraib:


They took me inside the building and started to scream at me. They stripped me naked, they asked me, "Do you pray to Allah?" I said, "Yes." They said, "Fuck you" and "Fuck him." ... Someone else asked me, "Do you believe in anything?" I said to him, "I believe in Allah." So he said, "But I believe in torture and I will torture you. When I go home to my country, I will ask whoever comes after me to torture you." Then they handcuffed me and hung me to the bed. They ordered me to curse Islam and because they started to hit my broken leg, I cursed my religion. They ordered me to thank Jesus I am alive. And I did what they ordered me. This is against my belief. They left me hang from the bed and after a while I lost consciousness."



of course most US soldiers are brave men and women who would never dream of such a thing, but we're kidding ourselves if we think Abu Ghraib was an abberation. in the process of conducting this war, are we becoming that which we hope to destroy?


and, yes, we do send people to Egypt to get tortured.
 
Interestingly CBS doesn't seem to think that accountability goes all the way to the top when they are at fault; Do as I say and not as I do.
 
Irvine511 said:



and which shortcoming of Rumsfeld's failed war *hasn't* been exposed?

at least CBS doesn't get people killed.
they only tried to sway an election :wink:

but got caught:|

db9
 
Not to mention their ever so biased Ronald Reagan film, their maritial status with Barbara Streisand, and now the fake Bush documents.

Amazing how Andy Rooney isn't considered half as obnoxious as Bill O'Reilly. Let's have a look at his records: Excerpts from http://www.suddenlysenior.com/andyrooneybaltimoresun.html

In 1990, he was suspended by CBS News for 32 days for inflammatory comments he made about gays to a gay newspaper that, in turn, ended up on a CBS news special.

In 1997, he angered that group once more by declaring that "so-called Indian casinos are a joke," and denouncing their owners as "sleazeballs."

In 1999, without naming names, he complained that "the most beautiful woman in television news" had had cosmetic surgery and now looked "as if she had been in a minor automobile accident."

And last year, he complained during a television sports show that women sideline reporters have "no business being down there (on the field) trying to make some comment about a football game."

So it was no surprise when he threw a few well-worn brickbats at the French for failing to support the war in Iraq earlier this year.

"You can't beat the French when it comes to food, fashion, wine or perfume, but they lost their license to have an opinion on world affairs years ago," he said on 60 Minutes.

"The French lost World War II to the Germans in about 20 minutes."

--------------------

Oh, but that's not all!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1286909/posts

"I am an atheist," Rooney told Tufts. "I don't understand religion at all. I'm sure I'll offend a lot of people by saying this, but I think it's all nonsense."

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/a/andy_rooney.html

"Men wake up aroused in the morning. We can't help it. We just wake up and we want you. And the women are thinking, "How can he want me the way I look in the morning?" It's because we can't see you. We have no blood anywhere near our optic nerve."

http://www.emigrant.ie/boards/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003031

"For all those men who say, 'Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free'. Here's an update for you. Nowadays 80% of women are against marriage, why? Because women realize it's not worth buying an entire pig, just to get a little sausage."


Sad thing is, he's not the only one. CBS is the most evil network on TV.
 
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