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Old 12-22-2005, 09:24 PM   #91
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Originally posted by darbyZ
Where do you think this comes from?It's not a species survival mechanism,because,if so,you wouldn't give a damn about the victim,since it's an animal instinct ,but you actually feel something,and that feeling bothers you,and if you run away from the scene your conscience will react with a twinge.............Why?/ We cannot materialize God because it's beyond our human capabilities,because then we would be out of the world of five senses and,as fallen,we are not given that power;but we are given the option to choose between good and bad,right and wrong,and a responsibility to live with our choice always asking ourselves and reexamining our decisions. Doubt,suspicion..........that's another big question,but needs more than several philosophical interpretations.Some other time........ PS I perfectly understand your standpoint,it's logic against divine...........that's the biggest contradiction of us ,as humans..........we are given much,but not all to know......is the answer
Do we empathise with a squid or a reptile? the only other animals that human beings are able to naturally empathise strongly with are the great apes - and even then there is an element of anthropomorphism to it. We read signals from other people, when we want to relate positively we can put ourselves in another persons shoes, when we want to manipulate them we can do the very same thing.

Empathy is an adventageous trait for social animals where we are not inherently hard wired to cooperate like insects. It creates stronger social bonds which increase overall survival. Being able to read emotions is also an advantage in sexual pursuits and manipulating other individuals.

Placing divine influence upon traits that human beings feel (note how I didn't say think) are special does not make it so. Natural selection is not just nature red in tooth and claw, it can be about symbiosis and social heirachy just as much if not more so than sharper teeth or longer legs.
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Old 12-22-2005, 09:35 PM   #92
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As for matters of purpose, I think that the universe is not predetermined. I thought about a newtonian clockwork universe; one where every single particle obeys laws exactly and if we know the exact state of these particles in the now then we can know all that ever has and all that ever will happen exactly, if that was the case then purpose would be people living out their exact destiny as a product of set physical laws.

Now the universe is not that simple, there is probability involved at the fundamental scales, that inherent element of uncertainty that can alter things as important as if a radioactive isotope decays or not means that things are not predetermined, things are not destined to happen.

If this is the case then a case can be made that we do in fact have choice and it is not an illusion of reality, if this is the case then there is no reason that we cannot possibly achieve great things in our lives and thus fufill what we consider purpose.

Same thing with probability, the luckiest person in the world is not favoured by fates or Gods, they are simply the small percent that get the better end of the stick out of the massive numbers of people in the world.
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Old 12-23-2005, 02:26 AM   #93
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and, again, for all your appealing fervor, you're talking about highly subjective things that you don't even have defintions for or even a grasp of an undersatnding of beyond that which a bunch of people wrote down over 2,000 years ago. i don't find that compelling evidence for the existence of a diety, and i don't think that the concepts of Grace and Mercy are against human nature -- in fact, i think they tie directly into human nature and our need for unconditional love, since that's what Grace and Mercy are, that we will always be forgiven,
Grace, mercy, forgiving, unconditional love, are not against human nature.. relevation of the year or what? tsk. Tell me who brought up those things first? Who was the first one to speak out about mercy, forgiving, loving the enemy, who nailed it down and got nailed for it.

Oh just a bunch of totally subjective people 2000 years ago who didn´t have a grasp of an understanding.
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Old 12-23-2005, 09:49 AM   #94
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Grace, mercy, forgiving, unconditional love, are not against human nature.. relevation of the year or what? tsk. Tell me who brought up those things first? Who was the first one to speak out about mercy, forgiving, loving the enemy, who nailed it down and got nailed for it.

Oh just a bunch of totally subjective people 2000 years ago who didn´t have a grasp of an understanding.


did such ideas originate with Christ? he was the first person, ever, who thought up the "do unto others"? i know people who've never been to church in their lives and grew up without any religion who arrived at such conclusions as 8 year olds.

this is not to say that the Christ message is any less worthy because it is not original.

it's just not necessarily original, and it's a bit arrogant to lay claim to the exclusivity of such notions, notions which are still of men, by men, and for men. i don't see any divine knowledge, just earthly knowledge.
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Old 12-23-2005, 09:58 AM   #95
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Civilizations had risen and fell for thousands of years before the ideas attributed to a figure called Jesus ever came into being, the philosophies may be good ways to live by but is it so difficult to think that they are an invention of mankind. Perhaps the concept of having some impossible God as the source of good in humanity makes those that don't know or believe that particular truth that little bit less human
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Old 12-23-2005, 10:07 AM   #96
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Perhaps the concept of having some impossible God as the source of good in humanity makes those that don't know or believe that particular truth that little bit less human


or that saying "well, these are God's rules" makes them that much more persuasive.

after all, who are we to question God? God is God, right? God knows?

that's what they tell us.
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Old 12-23-2005, 10:15 AM   #97
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Of course for us in pluralist free societies that view of lesser human beings because of differing belief is abhorent to our thoroughly liberal sensitivities towards others in our societies. But one can certainly find that attitude alive an well in the hearts and minds of literalists and true believers. I do not think that their "interperatation" of their respective religions is really any less than moderate forms, they cannot and should not be dissociated from religious belief and critical and skeptical individuals should not be hoodwinked and have the debate sidelined by believers trying to compartmentalise their belief with all the dirty laundy not being "true" faith.
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Old 12-23-2005, 10:25 AM   #98
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Originally posted by Irvine511
a few reasons:

1. the intellectual honesty i spoke about earlier
2. the abuse that has been performed in the name of God throughout the centuries
3. the illogicalness and the contradictions of the teachings -- i can't imagine that a grand designer or creator would be remotely interested in who i have sex with, or whether i have sex before marriage, and the fact that so many of his followers are *obsessed* with precisely these inane, inconsequential matters speaks volumes about the human-control blueprint embedded into religion
4. the Occam's Razor theory -- simplest explanation is the best
5. the immense power of the Almighty -- if you can claim that he's on your side and speaking into your left ear (hello, GWB), then who can't you conquor here on earth? [/B]
I like these reasons you'Ve just given to us But is believing in God meaning you're not true to yourself ? I think you meant "religion", no ? Because religion and god (to me at least !) are two distinct things. Religion is a way of living according to a group of people who believe in God. Believing in God is almost like a phylosophy. Having faith doesn't mean being Christian, nor Muslim. That's a choice. As practicing a religion is one either.

The abuse in the name of God that you are talking about has been made in the name of many other things. Governement for example guides us, hides us things and most of us will probably never know about it. The idea of the perfect civilian is not that much Christian but a creation of the system we are in. Horrible acts have been made in the name of freedom, love, country, pure race, etc. Not only God Just too bad we only tend to remember those ones... The worst acts during the 20th century might have been the 1st and 2nd world wars. I don't see any religion there, but power, racism and free killing.

Yep... the contradictions. There are so many ! That's why I spit on the bible ahahah. Man decides of these rules (like no sex before marriage) and often forget the reason they are in a religion, which is to believe in God and try to make of this world a better one. They invented tons of rules, modified the religious texts through the centuries. And today we can prove it. That's why people don't want to believe anymore in anything related to God because they think it's the cause. But the fault is human...

I'm not familiar with the two last points you've talked about. So I'll end it here
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Old 12-23-2005, 05:00 PM   #99
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Exactly,vervex!Phylosophy could be recognised as a religion by itself ! People can approach God through different sources,it's another question how church regards this-as blasphemy,I suppose...
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Old 12-23-2005, 05:34 PM   #100
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
As for matters of purpose, I think that the universe is not predetermined. I thought about a newtonian clockwork universe; one where every single particle obeys laws exactly and if we know the exact state of these particles in the now then we can know all that ever has and all that ever will happen exactly, if that was the case then purpose would be people living out their exact destiny as a product of set physical laws.

Now the universe is not that simple, there is probability involved at the fundamental scales, that inherent element of uncertainty that can alter things as important as if a radioactive isotope decays or not means that things are not predetermined, things are not destined to happen.

If this is the case then a case can be made that we do in fact have choice and it is not an illusion of reality, if this is the case then there is no reason that we cannot possibly achieve great things in our lives and thus fufill what we consider purpose.

Same thing with probability, the luckiest person in the world is not favoured by fates or Gods, they are simply the small percent that get the better end of the stick out of the massive numbers of people in the world.
great,very thoroughly...but in your universe which is not predetermined,how do you explain the mistery of black holes?" Luckiest"-it's our earthly term,who says he/she is favoured when you stop using human logic and our limited perspective...Your theory is mathematics+logic,and that's the best way to deal with such problems,but not the only one...Can you explain mathematically the act of creation,creation in its most general sense?
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Old 12-23-2005, 09:50 PM   #101
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The mystery of black holes?

Black hole formation can be adequately described with general relativity, they are just regions of space where there is so much gravitational attraction that light and information cannot escape, they are a prediction of GR that has been verified by observational evidence.

The mystery of black holes is what goes on beyond the event horizon, the problem is that the physics that we use to describe the universe breaks down and we get undefined answers. Maybe the answer to those questions will lie in new theories about the universe that can encompass observations at both the very large and very small scales at all extremes.

I think that to quantify creativity would be an enormous undertaking that would involve mapping billions of neurons and electrochemical interactions, I think that is beyond the scope of what we have today, but in principle I do not think it would be impossible to find out if enough effort was placed into it.
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Old 12-23-2005, 11:08 PM   #102
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I would be very pleased to continue this discussion,but obvious language barrier disables me to express my ideas coherently and while I was studying(in France) I didn't have enough time to polish up my English to an academic level,which I'll certainly do,but that takes time.....Sorry for bothering you,and as you said:For Every Question There Is An Answer;mine would be: work more on English! P.S. Perfectly understood your answer,though literature and philosophy are more my domain...Personaly,i think that some questions lie outside the domain of science,but perhaps time will deny me...Who would say my brother is a physicist? Bye,D.
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Old 12-24-2005, 01:09 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

did such ideas originate with Christ? he was the first person, ever, who thought up the "do unto others"?
that´s what i said. tell me another, earlier, philosophy or religion or even political revolution that had the idea of "turning the other cheek", having enough fish to feed all, love your neighbor like yourself etc.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

i know people who've never been to church in their lives and grew up without any religion who arrived at such conclusions as 8 year olds.
i think that children have a very natural faith, not dependent on adult-oriented thoughts about faith.

Quote:
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it's just not necessarily original
i didn´t say it was exclusive. one could argue that socialism or communism has some similar theoretical ideas, but that marx would have never had the idea of such ideals if there would not have been an established history of those ideas for 2,000 years.

are you sure that red cross, caritas, help organizations would exist without the immense faith that people put into their works? where do you get the idea to help others, does it make sense at all, when you´re all rational and without faith? ponder over this question a bit. then you will agree that a human quality can be a spiritual or religious quality at the same time.
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Old 12-24-2005, 01:30 AM   #104
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Or maybe spiritual and religious qualities are a reflection of human qualities, human qualities that are a product of human society and biology.
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Old 12-24-2005, 01:52 AM   #105
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There are all kinds of myths that predate or run concurrent to Judaism concerning far-off gods who demand sacrifice in order to satisfy or abate their wrath. There are all kinds of myths that predate Christ about gods being made mortal and living among us.

These myths make sense from a human perspective -- how often have we as a people wanted to earn whatever fortune we receive? No one wants to owe anyone anything.

Tell me what myth however predates that of a wrathful God committing suicide on behalf of His enemies, for no other reason than to have relationship with them.

A story so outside the bounds of our imagination that, 2,000 years later, so many refuse to buy it.
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