Questions for Religious People... - Page 6 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-16-2005, 01:53 PM   #76
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 03:53 AM
Incredible posts there nathan.

And 1977 ruled!!
__________________

__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 12-16-2005, 07:22 PM   #77
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

i will definitely get back to you on this one.
ok I am curious. Good luck with your paperwork!
__________________

__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 12-17-2005, 08:32 AM   #78
The Fly
 
vervex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Quebec City
Posts: 283
Local Time: 03:53 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy

I do find it hard though to accept the 'god is everyone and everything' statement. What makes your statement right, and the whole evolution wrong? Its what i grapple with.

I also think that religion is a catalyst for most of the atrocities that have happened and are happening in our society, and that makes me even warier of religions as a whole.
Well first... Saying God is omnipotent and omipresent doesn't mean there was no evolution. If you read a bit about science, you'll discover everything is made of pure energy. And that energy, I think, could be an answer. So if you concider God was a kind of "soul" or "pure energy" itself, alive and not at the same, absolute and not, well you'll believe that "he" can be everywhere and can do anything. We are all influenced by this energy, so it influces us... But I would be entering into psychic things here

Religion was an excuse for people to make wars. As is science. Atomic bomb is not Christian, but it killed a lot of people on earth already, didn't it ? Religion is like any other excuse when you think about it... It's not fair to point it only.
__________________
vervex is offline  
Old 12-22-2005, 04:59 AM   #79
Refugee
 
dazzlingamy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The city of blinding lights and amazing coffee - Melbourne.
Posts: 2,468
Local Time: 07:53 PM
sorry, i was away on holidays for a few days, but thanks to everyone who replied and discussed things in here, lots to think about, and i feel that i got a good insight into a "religious" thinking persons mind!

thanks again
__________________
dazzlingamy is offline  
Old 12-22-2005, 05:13 AM   #80
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen

how is that contradictory to the idea of there being a God? In fact, how is it not evidence of God?

For you personally, from your own heart, when you study the Earth and everything on it, what does it do to you? Why are you drawn to know all this? Where does that come from?

I think that we have to begin from the position that we know absolutely nothing. This includes the possible existence of God, alien life, wormholes etc. From that we may build up a better picture, every step of the way application of rigorous scientific method to understanding the world be it life, the universe or even miracles there has been no compelling evidence hinting towards a guiding intelligence or divine influence. Thats the problem with the supernatural, it simply cannot be proven or disproven objectively and believers cannot be persuaded by objective evidence.

In the complete absence of compelling evidence to suggest the existence of God I do not think that there can be any logical reason to view the universe through that lense. The facts of the matter may proove to be completely what we didn't expect but we just don't know so there is no point in taking a definitive stand other than saying that as far as I am aware there is no God.

I think that the big questions of existence of the universe may lie outside the confines of our own universe, its dimensions and physical laws and if that is the case then literally anything may be possible. That is moot speculation, it could one day be hinted at if we could validate theories involving multiple dimensions.

Just for the record I do think that some theoretical physicists and cosmologists exhibit unwavering belief in their theories however their grandeur is often silenced for a while whenever new data comes in that may show something else.

The question why? seems to place purpose and meaning towards existence, in some respects I may think like an existentialist in not placing any inherent meaning in my existence - simply viewing the world as bodies in space.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 12-22-2005, 11:58 AM   #81
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 03:53 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer

The question why? seems to place purpose and meaning towards existence, in some respects I may think like an existentialist in not placing any inherent meaning in my existence - simply viewing the world as bodies in space.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to put you down or belittle where you're coming from, but I have to say, after reading this I just feel saddness.

Are you saying you have no more purpose than a pebble on the ground? Doesn't this make it harder to go through life, thinking there's no purpose to anything? (I'm seriously wondering.) I honestly can't imagine living life like that.
That brings up a question -- can science prove we have no purpose?
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 12-22-2005, 12:26 PM   #82
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 03:53 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
Are you saying you have no more purpose than a pebble on the ground? Doesn't this make it harder to go through life, thinking there's no purpose to anything? (I'm seriously wondering.) I honestly can't imagine living life like that.
That brings up a question -- can science prove we have no purpose?


A_W is doing a great job of explaining where i'm currently at right now. that, and when you examine the structure of religion itself, as well as the needs fulfilled by our notions of God, it just seems to make more sense that God and religion are symptoms of human need. this doesn't meant that how you understand God and it's function in your life isn't real to you, it's just that there's nothing to God beyond yourself.

insofar as we are aware. i like that.

as for the above, no, you don't have any more purpose than a pebble on a ground. science is unconcerned with purpose -- or at least metaphysical purpose, since that's not something that can be quantified, verified or falsified. so, i think that, objectively, our lives have no inherent purpose *until* you begin to create your own meaning, your own purpose, your own life, your own love, your own reasons for being alive. this is a fundamental assertion of existentialism -- once the depression after coming to terms with the belief (i won't say fact) that there is no God has lifted, you should become remarkably aware of your own freedom to create of this life whatever you want (within the constraints of the society to which you were born).

so perhaps taking control of your own life involves the surrendering of your life to notions of God or Christ. that's fine, and that's entirely valid, but it is also entirely your own choice and you are choosing to bring yourself to something rather than rediscovering something from whence you came ... does that make sense? you are giving your life purpose, but that doesn't mean that you've discovered Purpose or Truth or Meaning; you've created your own purpose, truth, and/or meaning.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 12-22-2005, 12:56 PM   #83
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 03:53 AM
"when you examine the structure of religion itself, as well as the needs fulfilled by our notions of God, it just seems to make more sense that God and religion are symptoms of human need."

Where does this human need come from? Is there no purpose to it?

I actually agree with you that religion is a human thing. Very much so. God though, no way.

"you should become remarkably aware of your own freedom to create of this life whatever you want (within the constraints of the society to which you were born)."

Actually, believe it or not, you just proved a loving God exists right here. "Within the constraints of the society. . ." Think about this: Back to the whole purpose to everything -- if there's no purpose and there's no value to our lives, we just exist, then why would it be a big deal if I go outside my office here, find a woman and rape her? Well, as you mentioned there's constraints in society and this isn't allowed. Society after society believes this. Aside from the law though, and in fact why our laws are there, is our own hearts. If you were to see a woman being raped right in front of you, you wouldn't go get popcorn and sit and watch. That'd be wrong. Knowing your heart as much as I do, you'd do what you could to stop it. Then you'd help her out. Why? Because you know that's right. So there's a concept of good and bad, right and wrong in your heart, in mine and everyone else here. Where does that come from? Is it just there because we put it there? No. It's part of who we are. God forbid, but if a child were to witness something horrific like that, what would they do? They would sit there and cry, yell and scream. Why? Because they know it's wrong. They know something isn't right here. Is that something a young child can just put there? No. It's there. It's in us. I'm sure someone will say "Well, that's just a survival skill we've adopted over time." Sorry. That sense of right and wrong is there even when it's not a situation that affects our survival. Why is it there? Because there's a larger sense of good to everything. It's funny how we all just "happen" to have emotions to react to these situations too.
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 12-22-2005, 01:16 PM   #84
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 03:53 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
Where does this human need come from? Is there no purpose to it?
i think the human need arises from the dreadful awareness of what might be called the human condition and the fundamental absurdity of life -- we are born to die.

who are we? what do we do while we are here? where did we come from? where are we going?

we can't know the answers to these questions. so we give ourselves explanations, myths, stories, morals, parables, legends, and all sorts of things. these demonstrate how, through language, we make sense of the absurdity and fundamental meaninglessness of life on this rock and make our time here more meaningful. one could say that this is precisely the "purpose" of this very human need -- to love and be loved, to have inherent value. ideally, our parents give us this, and then our life partners (though we earn our partner's love as adults, whereas we are given our parents love at birth ... or at least this is how it should be in an ideal world). if one gets this feeling, of being loved and of having inherent worth, from a diety, then i see nothing wrong with that.

i don't, however, see the existence of these needs as proff of the existence, or even the suggestion of the existence, of a Creator.

i think it's a gorgeous, wonderful idea, and deep down i do hope it's true, it's just that when i'm honest with myself, in my heart of hearts, or, rather, my head of heads, it just seems that the simplest explanation is the best, and the simplest explanation is that there isn't any sort of diety intervening in our lives.





[q]Actually, believe it or not, you just proved a loving God exists right here. "Within the constraints of the society. . ." Think about this: Back to the whole purpose to everything -- if there's no purpose and there's no value to our lives, we just exist, then why would it be a big deal if I go outside my office here, find a woman and rape her? Well, as you mentioned there's constraints in society and this isn't allowed. Society after society believes this. Aside from the law though, and in fact why our laws are there, is our own hearts. If you were to see a woman being raped right in front of you, you wouldn't go get popcorn and sit and watch. That'd be wrong. Knowing your heart as much as I do, you'd do what you could to stop it. Then you'd help her out. Why? Because you know that's right. So there's a concept of good and bad, right and wrong in your heart, in mine and everyone else here. Where does that come from? Is it just there because we put it there? No. It's part of who we are. God forbid, but if a child were to witness something horrific like that, what would they do? They would sit there and cry, yell and scream. Why? Because they know it's wrong. They know something isn't right here. Is that something a young child can just put there? No. It's there. It's in us. I'm sure someone will say "Well, that's just a survival skill we've adopted over time." Sorry. That sense of right and wrong is there even when it's not a situation that affects our survival. Why is it there? Because there's a larger sense of good to everything. It's funny how we all just "happen" to have emotions to react to these situations too. [/B][/q]



i think A_W can explain this better than i do, but i think human empathy -- being able to see ourselves in the shoes of others -- creates a sense of right and wrong. i don't rape people not because God tells me it's wrong; i don't rape people because i could never inflict such pain and humiliation on another human being because i would never want such pain and humiliation inflicted upon myself -- it's essentially the "do unto others rule," which is a piece of brilliance, but it's also a species survival mechanism.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 12-22-2005, 01:52 PM   #85
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 03:53 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

i think A_W can explain this better than i do, but i think human empathy -- being able to see ourselves in the shoes of others -- creates a sense of right and wrong. i don't rape people not because God tells me it's wrong; i don't rape people because i could never inflict such pain and humiliation on another human being because i would never want such pain and humiliation inflicted upon myself -- it's essentially the "do unto others rule," which is a piece of brilliance, but it's also a species survival mechanism.
But I don't rape women because God tells me it's bad either. That's my point. I know it's bad. You could say I never had to learn that it was bad. I've never thought otherwise. You said empathy creates a sense of right and wrong. I think it's the other way around -- a sense of right and wrong creates empathy. And how is the "do unto others" rule a form of a survival mechanism. I totally disagree. I think the instinct of faith in that concept has to override an instinct of survival in order for that concept to work. You have to give of yourself to do unto others...that's not a survival frame of mind. It's total opposite. That's why I don't see how people can say Christianity is man-made. Actually, maybe the denominations are but the teachings and story of Christ's life are in no way man made. No human is brilliant enough to think of a leader who is born into poverty, turns the other cheek and dies for his followers after being tortured and humiliated. It makes no sense. This is why the Jews didn't accept him when he was here, he didn't fit the mold of what they thought he should be, even though he fits all the prophecies of the OT.


Quote:
i think it's a gorgeous, wonderful idea, and deep down i do hope it's true, it's just that when i'm honest with myself, in my heart of hearts, or, rather, my head of heads, it just seems that the simplest explanation is the best, and the simplest explanation is that there isn't any sort of diety intervening in our lives.
So why settle!? In being honest with yourself, if you hope its true deep down inside, why isn't it good enough? I think your idea of being honest with yourself is finding something you can understand. We're talking about God here. Something we can't understand. We're talking about Grace and Mercy. These concepts go against our human nature.

Seriously, and this questions to you and everyone else who doesn't believe in God -- why not?
What is the danger of you believing in God? Is it a fear of some sort? or do you honestly, wholeheartedly think you have it all figured out?
Why not believe in God? Why don't you put faith in him?

Thanks for your response. And Irvine, I hope I'm not coming across as a know-it-all prick here. I'm sorry if I am. I understand where you're coming from.
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 12-22-2005, 02:32 PM   #86
The Fly
 
darbyZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: where Danube kisses the sky
Posts: 40
Local Time: 09:53 AM
Quote:
[i]Originally posted by Irvine511



i think A_W can explain this better than i do, but i think human empathy -- being able to see ourselves in the shoes of others -- creates a sense of right and wrong. i don't rape people not because God tells me it's wrong; i don't rape people because i could never inflict such pain and humiliation on another human being because i would never want such pain and humiliation inflicted upon myself -- it's essentially the "do unto others rule," which is a piece of brilliance, but it's also a species survival mechanism. [/B]
Where do you think this comes from?It's not a species survival mechanism,because,if so,you wouldn't give a damn about the victim,since it's an animal instinct ,but you actually feel something,and that feeling bothers you,and if you run away from the scene your conscience will react with a twinge.............Why?/ We cannot materialize God because it's beyond our human capabilities,because then we would be out of the world of five senses and,as fallen,we are not given that power;but we are given the option to choose between good and bad,right and wrong,and a responsibility to live with our choice always asking ourselves and reexamining our decisions. Doubt,suspicion..........that's another big question,but needs more than several philosophical interpretations.Some other time........ PS I perfectly understand your standpoint,it's logic against divine...........that's the biggest contradiction of us ,as humans..........we are given much,but not all to know......is the answer
__________________
darbyZ is offline  
Old 12-22-2005, 03:59 PM   #87
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 03:53 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
[B]

But I don't rape women because God tells me it's bad either. That's my point. I know it's bad. You could say I never had to learn that it was bad. I've never thought otherwise. You said empathy creates a sense of right and wrong. I think it's the other way around -- a sense of right and wrong creates empathy.

i see your point -- it does become a little bit chicken-and-egg, though, doesn't it? why, then, do all religions have the same sense of right and wrong for the most part? i.e., no one says it's okay to rape, murder, steal, etc. it clearly can't be because all religions are equal or operate under the same set of rules, as you've said yourself.

only going by my own experience, i respond to the suffering of other people -- notions of right vs. wrong really don't enter my mind when i have a visceral reaction to stories of children abducted or gay people who get bashed or when Iraqi children have their flesh burned off by white phosphorus used by US soldiers. my immediate reaction is to imagine myself in such a situation, feel the pain that i would feel, and then know that i would never want such a thing to happen to me. therefore, it is wrong. it's a combination of an emotional reaction coupled with an intellectual extrapolation. i would never need an external force to let me know that this is right or this is wrong.





[q]And how is the "do unto others" rule a form of a survival mechanism. I totally disagree. I think the instinct of faith in that concept has to override an instinct of survival in order for that concept to work. You have to give of yourself to do unto others...that's not a survival frame of mind. It's total opposite. That's why I don't see how people can say Christianity is man-made.[/q]


it's a form of survial for the reasons i elucidated above -- socializing people not to kill each other is a great way to make sure the species continues and is essential for the survival of specific communites -- i.e., while it might be fine to kill people from other tribes/ethnic groups, you must protect your own. how do you protect your own? through empathy with those who look, act and speak like you.



[q]Actually, maybe the denominations are but the teachings and story of Christ's life are in no way man made. No human is brilliant enough to think of a leader who is born into poverty, turns the other cheek and dies for his followers after being tortured and humiliated. It makes no sense. This is why the Jews didn't accept him when he was here, he didn't fit the mold of what they thought he should be, even though he fits all the prophecies of the OT.[/q]


i agree that the story is poetically brilliant. but i think it's a bit of a leap to say that no one was brilliant enough to think it up. and perhaps, the more fantasical it is, the more emotionally compelling, the more poetic, the greater its power will be to win over both it's subjects and potential converts.

also, keep in mind that Christianity is -- i believe -- the *only* religion to offer life after death. now that is an offer one can hardly refuse.


[q]So why settle!? In being honest with yourself, if you hope its true deep down inside, why isn't it good enough? I think your idea of being honest with yourself is finding something you can understand. We're talking about God here. Something we can't understand. We're talking about Grace and Mercy. These concepts go against our human nature. [/q]

it isn't good enough because i value intellectual honest over emotional need, and i find not comfort but at least integrity in being able to stare into the abyss and simply learn to accept that which is.

and, again, for all your appealing fervor, you're talking about highly subjective things that you don't even have defintions for or even a grasp of an undersatnding of beyond that which a bunch of people wrote down over 2,000 years ago. i don't find that compelling evidence for the existence of a diety, and i don't think that the concepts of Grace and Mercy are against human nature -- in fact, i think they tie directly into human nature and our need for unconditional love, since that's what Grace and Mercy are, that we will always be forgiven, that no matter how bad we mess up Mommy and Daddy will always be there for us and love us and feed and shelter us. beliefs in God do the same thing, only for the spirit and the soul, but it is also about the body -- the body is one day going to be destroyed, to be worm food, or charred remains in Fallujah. how do we deal with the inevitable endpoint of our physical being? by creating a sense of life beyond the body, of life that isn't tied down to the temporeal flesh and will go on forever. we're so bound up by biology, it is terrible -- the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and we must remember that those years have been lived minute-by-minute, in the way that we live minute-by-minute. the incomprehensible vastness of space and time are simply too far beyond our ability, as earthly beings, to handle. and we dread what we don't know. and so we protect ourselves from that terror.

and that, in and of itself, is just as poetically beautiful as the story of Jesus born in the shit and the straw.

Quote:
Seriously, and this questions to you and everyone else who doesn't believe in God -- why not?
What is the danger of you believing in God? Is it a fear of some sort? or do you honestly, wholeheartedly think you have it all figured out?
Why not believe in God? Why don't you put faith in him?
a few reasons:

1. the intellectual honesty i spoke about earlier
2. the abuse that has been performed in the name of God throughout the centuries
3. the illogicalness and the contradictions of the teachings -- i can't imagine that a grand designer or creator would be remotely interested in who i have sex with, or whether i have sex before marriage, and the fact that so many of his followers are *obsessed* with precisely these inane, inconsequential matters speaks volumes about the human-control blueprint embedded into religion
4. the Occam's Razor theory -- simplest explanation is the best
5. the immense power of the Almighty -- if you can claim that he's on your side and speaking into your left ear (hello, GWB), then who can't you conquor here on earth?
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 12-22-2005, 09:13 PM   #88
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 03:53 AM
one more thing to add -- i do want to say that i'm simply trying to explain where i'm' at right now. i am just at a point where i'm pondering the big questions -- happens from time to time, often at the end of the year -- and these are the conclusions i'm arriving at. it probably says more about my state of mind than anything else. i've been living through notions of acceptance of certain things, and part of acceptance is trying to see clearly, to see what is and now what you wish to be, and to see where you might fit in the grand scheme of it all. the acceptance to the non-existence of god plays into all of that, and it provides a little comfort, if i'm honest.

this has been a very interesting discussion, and you've jogged my thinking, always a good thing at times like these.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 12-22-2005, 09:15 PM   #89
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 03:53 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by darbyZ
...is the answer


agreed. i can think of no better way to fill life with structure, meaning, and purpose, than through the creation of loving relationships with other human beings.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 12-22-2005, 09:19 PM   #90
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


I'm sorry, I don't mean to put you down or belittle where you're coming from, but I have to say, after reading this I just feel saddness.

Are you saying you have no more purpose than a pebble on the ground? Doesn't this make it harder to go through life, thinking there's no purpose to anything? (I'm seriously wondering.) I honestly can't imagine living life like that.
That brings up a question -- can science prove we have no purpose?
I think that the writers of TV's Angel put it best in the shows manifesto "if nothing that we do matters then all that matters is what we do". Thats an existentialist declaration about how in the absence of meaning in this world we can create meaning in deed. We can do the right things not because we need to answer to a higher power at the end of it, but simply because its the right thing to do, that it may make life that little bit better.

It is entirely possible to not only exist but have a content time doing it without faith, absolved from any religious peity and in pursuit of individual goals whatever they may be. To be remembered throughout the ages, to be poweful, to save lives or whatever thing in this world you want.
__________________

__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com