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Old 12-15-2005, 01:12 AM   #16
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Actually, the iron horse has a great point. Think about what he's asking for a minute. Why does a strawberry taste good? Why do we as humans enjoy them? Why does it exist for us to eat? Why does it provide nurishment and vitamins to our bodies? There seems to be a lot of logic behind it all -- and that's just a strawberry. Why do we have teeth to chew the strawberry and a tongue to taste them? Why does a strawberry turn into a turd? Sometimes evidence of God is most obvious in the details.
This is not evidence of God, it is evidence of the highly directed principle of natural selection acting upon plant life.

The strawberry may be considered a fruit, it is a means of seed dispersal. There is a selective pressure on these plants to produce fruit that will be consumed by animals and disperse seeds, the more favourable the fruit is to a particular animal it will have a slight advantage in dispersal and reproductive success, the selective pressures from animals drives the evolution of fruit. In addition human beings have selectively bred fruit bearing plants to deliver much tastier fruit (just look at Bananas they have been cultivated by human beings for a few thousand years and no longer produce viable seeds).

We have teeth to mechanically digest food by means of mastication, it is the first step of breaking down complex foodstuffs for chemical energy. The digestive system in vertebrates has evolved over a very long period of time, human beings just have teeth that suit our diet of meat and plant.

It is not a case of God inventing Strawberries and Homo Sapiens for eachother, it is a highly selective pressure acting upon random variation to deliver things that may be considered perfect for eachother even though they are not designed for eachother.
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Old 12-15-2005, 01:18 AM   #17
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The mundane causes for euphoria in the human brain are also effective mechanisms for human faith, oxygen starvation to the brain can produce the same effects I mean just look at all those NDE people verifying faith through the natural trip as the brain shuts down when we die.

I think that looking at religious belief as a social manifiestation of artifacts in the human psyche can be important.
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Old 12-15-2005, 01:59 AM   #18
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Yeah see, you say something like that, and i piss myself laughing.

Dazzlingamy ,

I had a good laugh too
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Old 12-15-2005, 02:05 AM   #19
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It is not a case of God inventing Strawberries and Homo Sapiens for eachother, it is a highly selective pressure acting upon random variation to deliver things that may be considered perfect for eachother even though they are not designed for eachother.
Thank God...someone talks rationally

God - I thank you for blessing earth with A_Wanderer


God - Why did you make stupid people... WHY WHY WHY????
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Old 12-15-2005, 04:15 AM   #20
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
Ok I´ll bite... let me roll one first.



Your whole post was interesting. When I read your posts, I know I'm going to read something original, and often delightful.
And I'm going to think a little differently.
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Old 12-15-2005, 05:08 AM   #21
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Don't fear death, it's happened to a lot of people and it's going to happen to you. It will be just like before you were born.
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Old 12-15-2005, 06:45 AM   #22
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Thank you to everyone who share their views and beliefs. I truly wanted to see the other side of religion because i am interested in faith as i have none. Well i have belief in myself, that me as a human will live my life as i lay fit and then die and then thats it. I can't with how i see the world and my intelligance as a whole put my faith into something i have never seen or been given insight into (which i guess is what faith is all about) I find religion interesting, but then i also find the notion of pagenism throughout christianity, that all religions lead to something... I don't believe in God but i do believe there is something out there, whether its aliens, or a divine being or something...

i look forward to other comments as well.

I do find it hard though to accept the 'god is everyone and everything' statement. What makes your statement right, and the whole evolution wrong? Its what i grapple with.

I also think that religion is a catalyst for most of the atrocities that have happened and are happening in our society, and that makes me even warier of religions as a whole.
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Old 12-15-2005, 07:03 AM   #23
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy


I also think that religion is a catalyst for most of the atrocities that have happened and are happening in our society,

I think that you think right
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Old 12-15-2005, 07:07 AM   #24
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I think that deprivation of liberty is that threat, and it is why both religion and totalitarian communism can lead to the same things. Religious adherence should entail a voluntary surrender of liberty (adhering to religious virtues will limit your freedom of action, but that in itself is not what I am aiming at, it is the voluntary part), but it can be forced upon people in violation of their individual rights and that is when it becomes a profoundly negative and retrograde force upon all of society. Freedom of religion in accordance with the no harm principle is the best compromise and least bad option,
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Old 12-15-2005, 07:34 AM   #25
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Originally posted by BonosSaint



Your whole post was interesting. When I read your posts, I know I'm going to read something original, and often delightful.
And I'm going to think a little differently.
Thank you, that´s a very nice thing to say
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Old 12-15-2005, 07:51 AM   #26
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy
I do find it hard though to accept the 'god is everyone and everything' statement. What makes your statement right, and the whole evolution wrong? Its what i grapple with.

I also think that religion is a catalyst for most of the atrocities that have happened and are happening in our society, and that makes me even warier of religions as a whole.
Saying that God is everyone and everything does not mean to state that the whole evolution is wrong.. why? I think the scientists told us the right thing, and I do not take the Genesis literally. Apart from that, pagans (or people who believe in other religions like Celts in Middle Europe) often mention that today´s Bible is a censored version,important parts of the original book were deleted for today´s King James Bible, like the story of Lilith, Adams first wife in Genesis.

So while I believe in God, I don´t give much for the current discussion of how the world was created. The discussion was started by the conservative Christian Right. Please do not think that all Christians, or even a majority of Christians, think that way. We´re not that extreme.

I agree with your second paragraph, sometimes it is hard to believe in the institutionalized church. Maybe you can understand me when I tell you my belief does not depend on church?

I rather think the Catholic church offers me a way to live my religion, whereas many "atheists" do not care for living a "religious" life. The great rites of the Catholic Church, like the communion, are from very ancient times. Johanna Wagner, whose books I recommend to everyone, has written a very interesting view/ experience on the similarities of cannibalism and the communion. After all, Eucharist turns flesh into bread and blood into wine. It´s exactly those rites that I want to know more about. There are secrets to unveil in our technocratic, cold, fucked up world.
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Old 12-15-2005, 08:26 AM   #27
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Oh my goodness.....where can I START....?

I'm not going to get all weepy and philosophical...I'm just going to give you a plain answer - YES I do believe in G-d and it will take me a long time to explain why....I wish I could make it simple but I can't.

Sept.11th was a horrible day where thousands of people were senselessy killed by Islamic fanatics who twisted the words of their own scripture to justify the slaughter of innocent people. Islam itself is a very tolerant and peaceful religion, just like Christianity and Judaism.

However horrible it was, I believe that G-d was merciful on that day in so many ways:
1. If the attacks had happened an hour later the death toll would have been doubled.
2. The WTC withstood the initial impact of the planes - allowing many people to escape from both towers.
3. Even though all the flights were doomed from the start, I believe that G-d gave the passengers on flight 93 the strength to resist the hijackers and divert the plane from its intended course of destruction - thus saving more lives.
4. As mentioned, George Bush's life (and many others) were spared when United 93 didn't continue on towards the White House as intended. I believe that there's a reason his life was spared - to avenge the deaths of the innocents killed on that day.

I could give you so many other examples but I imagine that there are a lot of you out there who are ready to punch me in the face.....lol.
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Old 12-15-2005, 08:58 AM   #28
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All good answers. I remember actually doing a talk about faith in college and afterward, someone said "What if you're wrong?" If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I know I have a feeling there is something more to us than just you're born and you're die, good luck with that. I have seen too much in my life to believe "Eh, so what? Sh-t happens." If that was the way life is, I would have given up a long time ago. Why I had to go through the things I have in my life, I don't know. What I do know is that those bad things in my life have made me better.

Achtung, I can sort of understand your argument for 9/11, but at the same time totally not. Frankly, I think a big part of that is the different perspective we had that day. No offense, but it's much easier for someone to think that way if they watched it on TV. I was there, I watched people die. I still don't understand how a loving God could have allowed what happened that day to happen. And why did some people die when others didn't? Why did I survive when a firefighter with a wife and six kids die? Why would God spare the life of the president if he knew the guy was going to lead soldiers into two wars to die, taking 30,000 innocent people in another country with them? Why not just not have 9/11 happen in the first place?

I think that may get to the bigger issue of your question, dazzling. Some believe in God and some don't because there are too many questions. It's not a "God is merciful because..." because you can never answer that question definitively. There will always be debate. Have you eaten a strawberry? Yeah, it tastes good or yeah, God gave us a great gift. Why kill in the name of God? Why not? I mean, we scoff at terrorists -- 70 virgins for killing the American infidels. I believe in my heart there are not 70 virgins waiting for them in Heaven, but how do I really know that?

In the end, it's what's in your heart, it's what you see to be your truth. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I would rather take that chance.

This all reminds me of a South Park episode where they are in Hell and all these people are talking to one of the leaders down there saying "We are Catholics, we are Muslims, we were good people, why are we in Hell?" and the guy says "Well, it was the Mormons who were right, just the Mormons."
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Old 12-15-2005, 11:28 AM   #29
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Originally posted by AchtungBono
[4. As mentioned, George Bush's life (and many others) were spared when United 93 didn't continue on towards the White House as intended. I believe that there's a reason his life was spared - to avenge the deaths of the innocents killed on that day.
The God I believe in doesn't "Avenge" nor support people like George "I call myself a Christian whilst I carpet bomb people" Bush.

I was raised a Catholic, and I suppose thats the religious belief I align myself most with. I can't prove to anyone that there is a God, and neither would I want to. I dont want to shove my beliefs down anyones throat. I've known Christians that are no better than Nazis, and Athiests that were the lovliest, Humanist kindest people imaginable. I dont assess a person by their religious creed or lack thereof; I look at their qualities. The God I believe in doesn't care how many times you go to mass; or how many times you pray. He just cares about your actions in society.

I like thinking of Jesus as a philosopher. If you read the Gospels, you get the basis of his teachings; basically, never harm anyone, and look after those who are oppresed and suffering. Thats the basis in life; if you want to live a good life, do that.

Personally, I don't have much time for Governments or anything like that. I suppose I'd align myself with the Christian Anarchist tradition; we're only answerable to one thing; God Himself. And the people I look up to are those people who try to make a diference to the poor and oppressed. People like Archbishop Oscar Romero, or Fr. Roy Bourgeois, missionary and founder of "School of the Americas Watch".

Anyway, my whole point is; dont worry to much about religion. You should read some books; but if it doesn't do anthing for you; then thats fine. Its all how you live your life that counts; not what you pledge your allegiance to.
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Old 12-15-2005, 12:25 PM   #30
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
This is not evidence of God, it is evidence of the highly directed principle of natural selection acting upon plant life.

It is not a case of God inventing Strawberries and Homo Sapiens for eachother, it is a highly selective pressure acting upon random variation to deliver things that may be considered perfect for eachother even though they are not designed for eachother.
Hey AWanderer -- it's been a while since we've talked.

I have a couple questions:
1. How do you know this is true?
2. How do you know this isn't the work of God?
3. Also, just reading this makes everything seem so random and without purpose. I can't see how the world works and just accept it's all an accident. The probability of that is astronimcal with way too many opportunities for it all to go wrong. Like I've said before, it's like me throwing a million puzzle pieces in the air and having everyone of them fall together in place to make a complete puzzle. I could do that the rest of my life and it would never happen. And we're talking about living organisms, plants, animals, humans, the sun, the solar system, oxygen, water, etc. etc. -- all of these things that work together. It's all an accident? That takes WAY more faith to believe that. I understand how you can break it down into a science, but that just serves as proof of an inteligent being behind it all.

That's just my perspective.
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