Questionable Cold War Actions that Have Lead to Recent Terrorism?

[melon]

Okay, I'm posting this here, because I am hoping that many here can take this into the spirit of debate. Let me repeat this sentiment of mine: There is no one to blame but the terrorists. However, these are interesting historical facts that I think would be worth debating:

1) President Reagan both trained and funded Osama bin Laden billions of dollars to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan during the 1980s.

2) President Reagan funded and armed Iraq during the seven year Iran-Iraq War during the 1980s.

3) President Reagan arguably funded and armed Iran during the Iran-Iraq War, hence perpetuating the war longer, generating billions for our defense contractors.

4) President Reagan created the militias during the 1980s, as the last line of defense after the National Guard, in case nuclear war would have ravaged our manpower. These same militias also arguably bombed Oklahoma City in 1994.

5) President Bush I sloppily started the Gulf War, apparently scarring Timothy McVeigh into hating the U.S. (he apparently witnessed atrocities like burying Iraqi soldiers alive while still in their trenches) and turning previous terrorist ally Osama bin Laden into a sworn enemy (he claims we defiled "sacred" Islamic land during the war).

6) President Bush II has angered international tensions with increasingly nationalistic language. Only "coincidentally," the U.S. has been bombing Iraq for the past couple weeks, and, after hearing what happened, Saddam Hussein rejoiced over our bombing. I think that Hussein is just as much of a suspect in the WTC disaster as bin Laden, perhaps with both of them conspiring together.

For those reading in "Everything You Know Is Wrong," I wrote this argument to counterargue the statement that Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson made that blamed liberals, pro-choicers, secularists, and homosexuals for the attack. Hence, I counterargued that conservatives could be equally contorted into blame, but I also emphasized that it is only the terrorists who are to blame.

With the spirit of debate in mind (i.e., no petty McCarthy-like statements calling those who agree "un-American" or "terrorist sympathizers"), I would like to hear what many of you think of these arguments...

Melon

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How long must we sing this song?!

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by melon:
Okay, I'm posting this here, because I am hoping that many here can take this into the spirit of debate. Let me repeat this sentiment of mine: There is no one to blame but the terrorists. However, these are interesting historical facts that I think would be worth debating:

1) President Reagan both trained and funded Osama bin Laden billions of dollars to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan during the 1980s.

2) President Reagan funded and armed Iraq during the seven year Iran-Iraq War during the 1980s.

3) President Reagan arguably funded and armed Iran during the Iran-Iraq War, hence perpetuating the war longer, generating billions for our defense contractors.

4) President Reagan created the militias during the 1980s, as the last line of defense after the National Guard, in case nuclear war would have ravaged our manpower. These same militias also arguably bombed Oklahoma City in 1994.

5) President Bush I sloppily started the Gulf War, apparently scarring Timothy McVeigh into hating the U.S. (he apparently witnessed atrocities like burying Iraqi soldiers alive while still in their trenches) and turning previous terrorist ally Osama bin Laden into a sworn enemy (he claims we defiled "sacred" Islamic land during the war).

6) President Bush II has angered international tensions with increasingly nationalistic language. Only "coincidentally," the U.S. has been bombing Iraq for the past couple weeks, and, after hearing what happened, Saddam Hussein rejoiced over our bombing. I think that Hussein is just as much of a suspect in the WTC disaster as bin Laden, perhaps with both of them conspiring together.

For those reading in "Everything You Know Is Wrong," I wrote this argument to counterargue the statement that Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson made that blamed liberals, pro-choicers, secularists, and homosexuals for the attack. Hence, I counterargued that conservatives could be equally contorted into blame, but I also emphasized that it is only the terrorists who are to blame.

With the spirit of debate in mind (i.e., no petty McCarthy-like statements calling those who agree "un-American" or "terrorist sympathizers"), I would like to hear what many of you think of these arguments...
Melon

Hi Melon,
I must point out that statement #1 is a little misleading. The USA didn't actually give Osama Bin Laden money to expel the Soviets from Afghanistan. the USA funded the mujahedeen freedom fighters, of which Osama Bin Laden had joined, to expel the Soviets. We have to remember here that the mujhadeen were the symbol of freedom for teh Afghanistan people. However, the Taliban didn't take over until years after the Soviets were driven off.

2)We can look back and see in hindsight that Reagan's actions weren't exactly the wise thing to be done.

3)This is indeed arguable, as to whether we did fund Iran.

4)I'm frankly pretty surprised that you stated this about the militias, Melon.These militias did NOT bomb the OK City courthouse. Some hothead named Timothy McVeigh bombed the courthouse in OK City. To blame all the militias for his actions is the same as blaming law-abiding muslims of bombing WTC, when we know full well that their religion didn't tell them to do this. It was a few misguided men who did this, and that can not be blamed on the Muslims, just as the bombing of OK City cannot be blamed on all militias.

5)Pres. Bush did not start Gulf War. Saddam Hussein started it when he invaded Kuwait. And if Bush was the reason McVeigh bombed OK City, why did he do it while Clinton was Pres?

6)There is nothing wrong with Bush's "nationalistic" tone. As president, his job is to protect the USA. When we walked out of the racism conference, it was because of severe language against our ally, Israel. However, I do agree that Iraq may be behind this as well as Osama Bin Laden.

I do agree that only the terrorists and those who back them are to blame.

However, might I also add another two factors that I believe may have helped lead to the terrorists' ABILITY to pull this off.

1)The first President Bush didn't take the Gulf War as far as he should have. If we were gonna be in that war, we needed to have total victory. He drove Hussein back to Baghdad, but he also had the power to follow Husein there, and destroy his government. It was the perfect time to do this. I don't just think this now, I remember thinking it when it happened. Hussein lived to torment us again because of this mistake. I don't think Bush Senior intended it this way, but that's how it appears to me.

2) Bill Clinton brought most of our spies home from abroad, and stopped working with our international snitches. In hindsight, what a horrible mistake. However, I do not think Clinton meant any harm by this, I think he was just incredibly naieve (sp?). I do not think it was appropriate that a reporter asked Clinton two days after the bombing if he felt partly responsible.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 09-15-2001).]

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 09-15-2001).]

 

[bonoman]

Originally posted by melon:

1) President Reagan both trained and funded Osama bin Laden billions of dollars to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan during the 1980s.


5) President Bush I sloppily started the Gulf War, apparently scarring Timothy McVeigh into hating the U.S. (he apparently witnessed atrocities like burying Iraqi soldiers alive while still in their trenches) and turning previous terrorist ally Osama bin Laden into a sworn enemy (he claims we defiled "sacred" Islamic land during the war).

6) President Bush II has angered international tensions with increasingly nationalistic language. Only "coincidentally," the U.S. has been bombing Iraq for the past couple weeks, and, after hearing what happened, Saddam Hussein rejoiced over our bombing. I think that Hussein is just as much of a suspect in the WTC disaster as bin Laden, perhaps with both of them conspiring together.

Melon

Responses

1.As 80's said it wasnt as if he gave Bin Laden Billions of dollars. He funded a defense system againist the Russians. This, at the time, was a good opurtunity to become allies with middle east countries and to stop the Soviets from become a larger power.

2-4. I really dont know enough about these subject to comment.

5.The Timothy McVeigh part of this comment is outragous. How could you say that Tim was scared into killing people and hating the US gov't for this. It is like saying that the children that killed people at school did it because they listen to Marlyin Manson and Ozzy and Eminem. Its shifting the blame and it isnt right. People that commit these crimes are always looking for a way to explain thier hate. McVeighs blaming of the US gov't is plain crazy. It is not the US gov't that made him like this it is War. period. He was a madman to begin with. I dont believe that people are made into madmen. They in my opion are crazy to start off with.

6.Well this bombing is in no way connected to Bush. None whatsoever. This attack had been being planned out for the last year or more. These "pilots" were attending school starting last June, when Bush wasnt even in office. Would we blame Gore if he had won? I am not American but i can tell being nationalistic isnt always a bad thing. Your country is the envy of everyother country in regards to patritism. I think other counties hate yours becuase it is so united in thier love for America. I do agree with Saddam. He is a person that needs to be stopped. He has chemical weapons and could easily be finacing these attacks. You never know he could hand off a chemical weapon to Bin Laden if Bin Laden does'nt have one already.

I know melon your not making these comments out of your own opinon but for arguements sake and what a great arguement it is!!!

I would also like to say that the Clinton administration didnt do enough to combat terrorism and would like to sat the inteligence system failed the US. It has been learned that the FBI told the CIA to watch two of the highjackers. Nothing was seen. Maybe because they were'nt looking at all.

Also think about this:
Hindsight is always 20/20

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Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."

"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono

 

[U2Bama]

Sad to say, but I fear that if Gore were in office (and the attack STILL WOULD HAVE HAPPENED), some would be wrongly blaming this on us having Lieberman as V.P.

~U2Alabama

 

[Holy John]

I was surprised to know that. I heard that earlier in the day...

the return of the wave..

cheers

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La resignacion es un suicido permanente