Question of the Day: Homosexuality

[Dalton]

I have noticed on these forums more than a few times posters accusing someone of being a bigot because of a stance/comment they made about homosexuality.

My question: do you believe it is possible for a person to believe that homosexuality is inherently wrong and not be a bigot?

 

[melon]

No. They're all bigots. I'm not going to sugar coat it, since I'm all about "absolute truth" these days. No wishy-washy relativism for me!

The question I can ask in response is whether it is possible for someone to believe that blacks or Jews are inherently evil and not be a bigot?

Melon

 

[financeguy]

My question: do you believe it is possible for a person to believe that homosexuality is inherently wrong and not be a bigot?

In my view, yes it is possible. They could just be stupid or brainwashed. They might not necessarily be a bigot.

 

[financeguy]

No wishy-washy relativism for me!

Yes it's about time we rooted out all this WISHY-WASHY RELATIVISM from the Church!

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

I think being a homosexual is an aberration. It is not right, it is not natural. We've discussed this before plenty of times.

However, I am pro gay marriage and I have nothing against homosexuals as persons themselves.

 

[Dalton]

No. They're all bigots. I'm not going to sugar coat it, since I'm all about "absolute truth" these days. No wishy-washy relativism for me!

The question I can ask in response is whether it is possible for someone to believe that blacks or Jews are inherently evil and not be a bigot?

Melon

No, it is not possible for someone to hate another because of their race/ethnicity and not be a bigot. But you and I both know there is much more ambiguity in the nature of homosexuality. We might talk like there isn't, but there is. I don't think it does anyone any good to argue that point.


By the way. I did not say "inherantly EVIL". I said inherantly WRONG.

 

[melon]

No, it is not possible for someone to hate another because of their race/ethnicity and not be a bigot. But you and I both know there is much more ambiguity in the nature of homosexuality. We might talk like there isn't, but there is. I don't think it does anyone any good to argue that point.

That's a pretty bigoted comment, if you ask me.

By the way. I did not say "inherantly EVIL". I said inherantly WRONG.

And I said "evil," so I'm sticking to it.

Melon

 

[melon]

I think being a homosexual is an aberration. It is not right, it is not natural. We've discussed this before plenty of times.

Yeah, well, so is birth control and the rhythm method. And marriage, for that matter. You're supposed to fuck whomever is in your sight the minute you get horny. That's what the natural animals do. No fancy schmancy "marriage rituals" for them. And the females don't even enjoy it.

"Let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel."

Melon

 

[financeguy]

No, it is not possible for someone to hate another because of their race/ethnicity and not be a bigot. But you and I both know there is much more ambiguity in the nature of homosexuality. We might talk like there isn't, but there is.

Only at THIS POINT IN HISTORY. In previous times, it would have been considered absurd to say black people are equal to white people. Whites would have viewed themselves as superior, basically. Also, there were times and places in history were homosexuality was much more tolerated.

 

[Dalton]

That's a pretty bigoted comment, if you ask me.



And I said "evil," so I'm sticking to it.

Melon

Shit. I forgot to put my "anti-antagonist" charm on this thread. Shit. Shit. Shit.


Seriously (if you are serious) why would my comment be bigoted. No one would argue that you are born "black" or born a Jew. There is well founded debate as to whether or not one is born homosexual.

 

[melon]

Seriously (if you are serious) why would my comment be bigoted. No one would argue that you are born "black" or born a Jew. There is well founded debate as to whether or not one is born homosexual.

Funny. It's bigotry that made "Jew" a race, rather than just a religion.

While a bunch of stuff-shirted heterosexuals reinvent the wheel, let the homosexual world tell you this bluntly: it is not chosen. It just happens. Fuck the "debate"; it's already been decided. But, yeah, as usual, we have to wait for WASP society to discover what we've already known for it to be determined as "knowledge."

It's like natural cures for ailments that Native Americans discovered centuries ago. When the white people "discover it," then they think they're so smart. No, the Native Americans discovered it first. Likewise, I think gay people know their own kind better than some smarmy hetero does.

Melon

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

Yeah, well, so is birth control and the rhythm method. And marriage, for that matter. You're supposed to fuck whomever is in your sight the minute you get horny. That's what the natural animals do. No fancy schmancy "marriage rituals" for them. And the females don't even enjoy it.

"Let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel."

Melon

So this is what we're suppossed to do now? Base our entire behaviour on animal mentalities? Come on, melon, I know you're capable of delivering awesome arguments sans any type of sarcasm that only hinders the argument itself.

 

[Dalton]

Funny. It's bigotry that made "Jew" a race, rather than just a religion.

While a bunch of stuff-shirted heterosexuals reinvent the wheel, let the homosexual world tell you this bluntly: it is not chosen. It just happens. Fuck the "debate"; it's already been decided. But, yeah, as usual, we have to wait for WASP society to discover what we've already known for it to be determined as "knowledge."

It's like natural cures for ailments that Native Americans discovered centuries ago. When the white people "discover it," then they think they're so smart. No, the Native Americans discovered it first. Likewise, I think gay people know their own kind better than some smarmy hetero does.

Melon

Wow. I can tell this is a personal/touchy subject for you (as it is for me). Let me ask it on this level then. Do you know anyone who believes that homosexuality is wrong who you still have a positive/respectful/loving relationship with (assuming you are gay)?


BTW - I'm native american. That has always been one of my favorite jokes. Everytime I go someplace I haven't been before, I tell people I discovered it - just like Columbus "discovered" the Americas.

I discovered the Grand Canyon last week. Oh and Flagstaff. I am thinking about renaming "Flagstaff".

 

[deep]

In December 1973, the American Psychiatric Association's Board of Trustees deleted homosexuality from its official nomenclature of mental disorders, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Second Edition (DSMII). The action was taken following a review of the scientific literature and consultation with experts in the field. For a mental condition to be considered a psychiatric disorder, it should either regularly cause emotional distress or regularly be associated with clinically significant impairment of social functioning. These experts found that homosexuality does not meet these criteria.

Whereas homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgement, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities, the American Psychiatric Association calls on all international health organizations, and individual psychiatrists in other countries, to urge the repeal in their own country of legislation that penalizes homosexual acts by consenting adults in private. And further, the APA calls on these organizations and individuals to do all that is possible to decrease the stigma related to homosexuality wherever and whenever it may occur.

 

[melon]

So this is what we're suppossed to do now? Base our entire behaviour on animal mentalities?

You're the one who brought up the "natural" argument, and all I did was rip it apart to how meaningless that word is. Modern society is very artificial, all the way from clothes (nature determines that we should run around naked) to toilets (nature determines that we should shit in a hole in the ground) to food ("sodium benzoate"...do I plant seeds to grow that?) to soap (a relatively modern invention) to medicine (sick people should be dying like flies, even from common bacterial infections).

So then hetero society tries to play the "nature" card to berate homosexuals. Sorry...you abdicated that card centuries ago. You're all a bunch of walking artificalities.

Melon

 

[melon]

Wow. I can tell this is a personal/touchy subject for you (as it is for me). Let me ask it on this level then. Do you know anyone who believes that homosexuality is wrong who you still have a positive/respectful/loving relationship with (assuming you are gay)?

I disown anyone who disagrees. I literally refuse to talk to them. I won't wait for them to try and "disown" me. Thankfully, I have a habit of being very convincing.

BTW - I'm native american. That has always been one of my favorite jokes. Everytime I go someplace I haven't been before, I tell people I discovered it - just like Columbus "discovered" the Americas.

Exactly. I'm not Native American, but it's downright silly how many things white society attempts to "discover" that's already been discovered by someone else. North America was discovered over 10,000 years ago.

Melon

 

[Dalton]

I disown anyone who disagrees. I literally refuse to talk to them. I won't wait for them to try and "disown" me. Thankfully, I have a habit of being very convincing.

Sarcasm or painful truth. I don't know you, so you will have to give me a hint.

Exactly. I'm not Native American, but it's downright silly how many things white society attempts to "discover" that's already been discovered by someone else. North America was discovered over 10,000 years ago.

Melon

I discovered you today. That means, I can rename you. Its fun being an explorer.


Sorry - I gotta run. Starting a convo and then leaving while cards are on the table is not a good way to make friends. I apologize.

 

[deep]

I think being a homosexual is an aberration. It is not right, it is not natural. We've discussed this before plenty of times.

and a 300 pound Swedish man
with a 95 pound Nigerian woman is not an abberation?

would you feel comfortable confronting them?

 

[deep]

Seriously (if you are serious) why would my comment be bigoted. No one would argue that you are born "black" or born a Jew. There is well founded debate as to whether or not one is born homosexual..

it is easier for some to leave their "Jewish"
background - (not that I thing they should have to)
than it would be for someone to leave their sexuality



no offense

but where is the empathy?
(not only directed at you, but all who make flip remarks
because it is not their personal situation)

 

[melon]

Sarcasm or painful truth. I don't know you, so you will have to give me a hint.

Everyone I know is accepting, thanks to my power of persuasion. I've never had to test this theory, but, chances are, I wouldn't have a good relationship with anyone that bigoted. It would be equivalent to an interracial marriage, where one side's parents strongly objected. Chances are, you wouldn't have a close relationship with them, as a result.

Melon

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

and a 300 pound Swedish man
with a 95 pound Nigerian woman is not an abberation?

would you feel comfortable confronting them?

See, men and women were created to complement each other. That is natural. Why is it that the way to reproduce sexually is through heterosexual relations?

Even the term "straight" implies that being heterosexual is "normal" and the only variant would be homosexuality. With that in mind I don't see how you feel offended by the term "aberration" if it only implies a "straying from the norm".

 

[melon]

no offense

but where is the empathy?
(not only directed at you, but all who make flip remarks
because it is not their personal situation)

"Most psychologists and researchers believe empathy is an acquired trait which you begin to learn at a young age until late adolescence."

Hmm...I think most children and adolescents are selfish little shits, so that's probably why "empathy" is in such short supply, especially if empathy generally cannot be learned past that stage.

But really...it makes sense. I think a lot of charity in this nation is really disguised self-righteousness. While I hate Ayn Rand's influence on capitalism, I think that some of her blunt characterizations of human nature are right on the mark. People are charitable not because it helps other people, but because it makes themselves feel better. In other words, it's so you can attain that "feeling," rather than actually helping anyone. A lot of charity these days is built around that principle, with plenty of opportunities for donors to have name recognition (names on buildings, sponsor recognition, etc.) in exchange for their donations.

Or in the case of those who fight to end diseases. How often do you hear of a celebrity taking on the cause of a disease that neither they or any of their friends or family members have? Christopher Reeve pushed for stem-cell research, so he could cure himself. Michael J. Fox wants Parkinson's Disease cured for himself. Again, it's about "me" not "them."

I think there's very little true empathy left in this world.

Melon

 

[deep]

Even the term "straight" implies that being heterosexual is "normal" and the only variant would be homosexuality. With that in mind I don't see how you feel offended by the term "aberration" if it only implies a "straying from the norm".

and when "Europeans" came to "Honduras" your people were called "Savages"

 

[melon]

See, men and women were created to complement each other. That is natural. Why is it that the way to reproduce sexually is through heterosexual relations?

Even the term "straight" implies that being heterosexual is "normal" and the only variant would be homosexuality. With that in mind I don't see how you feel offended by the term "aberration" if it only implies a "straying from the norm".

Do not confuse "natural" with "normal," because they are two vastly different concepts. "Nature" has wide genetic variance, even if it is uncommon. Homosexuality is "natural." Period.

"Normal," in the literal sense, means most common. In that sense, homosexuality is not "normal," because it occurs in approximately 10% of the population. But left-handedness is not "normal," because most people are right-handed. Being male and less than six feet tall is not "normal," because the average height is 6'. Being an albino is not "normal," because most people have full pigmentation. However, all of the above, including homosexuality, are part of nature. People may not like it, but you are not the arbiter of nature. God is.

Melon

 

[dandy]

i'm not fond of labels so i'm going to skip the 'bigot' part of the question.

irvine argued eloquently in another thread that the belief that homosexuality is wrong directly contributes to the climate of hositility and discrimation against the gay community. a person doesn't have to be actively campaigning against gay rights to passively buy into anti-gay sentiment.

gay rights are human rights, period. either you're part of the solution, or you're part of the problem.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

Do not confuse "natural" with "normal," because they are two vastly different concepts. "Nature" has wide genetic variance, even if it is uncommon. Homosexuality is "natural." Period.

"Normal," in the literal sense, means most common. In that sense, homosexuality is not "normal," because it occurs in approximately 10% of the population. But left-handedness is not "normal," because most people are right-handed. Being male and less than six feet tall is not "normal," because the average height is 6'. Being an albino is not "normal," because most people have full pigmentation. However, all of the above, including homosexuality, are part of nature. People may not like it, but you are not the arbiter of nature. God is.

Melon

I understand the concept of homosexuality a little bit better with your analogies of being left-handed or an albino, so thanks.

But isn't it a hinderance in a way? Personally, I would love to have children. How does a gay male have children of his own without having to resort to adoption? I mean it must be an obstacle or a "problem" at some to be a homosexual.

I have nothing against homosexual people, personally. But still, I can't help but think that there are many issues they must face because of this "special" condition.

 

[melon]

But isn't it a hinderance in a way? Personally, I would love to have children. How does a gay male have children of his own without having to resort to adoption? I mean it must be an obstacle or a "problem" at some to be a homosexual.

Honestly, it doesn't bother them. It doesn't bother me. The irony is that it seems to bother the heterosexuals looking in on it the most!

I'm unsure if I want children at all, but I don't see "adoption" as defective or lesser. Apparently, that must be why gay couples are used very often as "foster parents" and have been for years.

The only issues we face are those imposed on us by straight society, which is seemingly incapable of accepting anything different from themselves. But, as I see it, that's not our problem; that's your problem to take care of.

Melon

 

[Do Miss America]

To answer the original question NO.

 

[martha]

^ What she said.

 

[Irvine511]

See, men and women were created to complement each other. That is natural. Why is it that the way to reproduce sexually is through heterosexual relations?

Even the term "straight" implies that being heterosexual is "normal" and the only variant would be homosexuality. With that in mind I don't see how you feel offended by the term "aberration" if it only implies a "straying from the norm".

in one sense, you are 100% right. homosexuality is abnormal. so is being left-handed. so is having red hair. the point is that homosexuality is a 100% naturally occurring abnormality. there is no reason why people are gay, they just are. it stands at a complex interaction of genetics and environment, probably much more to do with genetics, and is 100% involuntary and unchosen.

the issue i would take with you is in your earlier post is that you said it wasn't "natural." clearly, as any gay person will tell you, their attraction to a member of the same sex is every bit as natural to them as is your attraction to the opposite gender. it's pretty much the same thing, and what gets me angry is when people reduce the attraction to simply fucking. we all like to fuck, hetero and homo, but it's also about emotional attraction and relating.

the second thing you said was that it wasn't "right." that's a huge value judgement, and i don't see how that's a defensible thing to say.

as for the original question, it is possible for someone not to be a bigot. they have a bigoted belief, but they might not be hateful. what they are is naive. and this is why it should be every gay person's job to be out and to demonsrate the naturallness and normality of how their orientation plays in their lives.

i truly do think most homophobia is rooted in either religious bigotry, repressed homosexual longings, or simple lack of sophistocation.