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Old 05-01-2005, 04:00 PM   #91
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I'm out.
That's too bad, I think you were asked some valid questions.
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Old 05-01-2005, 04:08 PM   #92
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Right BVS - I see your point in these:

Quote:
I think you are having a hard time making yourself clear. Why would hetero males have to be comfortable receiving a blowjob from a man? I mean what does that have to do with anything?

I'm not understanding how that effects bias. I don't want to picture old people having sex, but it doesn't give me a bias towards old people
I think part of the misunderstanding does stem from internalizing it. It's called empathy right?

For example, when I think of bigotry towards those of a different race, those who look different, disabled, etc... the internalization is about putting yourself in their shoes, imagining those things that set you apart, and how those things effect your life.

Ok, so I do the same with homosexuality -- and I have 2 major points of view right now on homosexuality.

The sex part --
And the emotional part -- this part BTW I am having an easier time relating to, and do empathize with Irvine's plight. It really hits home.

I run in a different crowd I guess. Funny, I've heard gay people react the same way, when the imagine being put in a heterosexual situation. But I guess it's just a stupid point.
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Old 05-01-2005, 05:43 PM   #93
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MI: please don't leave, this is real honesty we're getting at here. it's important not to simle and say "i'm okay/you're okay" and sing kumbya. let's talk about differences, and hope to learn from them.

you know what i find gross? the idea of performing oral sex on a woman. sorry, but i really do, and i've done it because i felt i had to for a variety of reasons. you know what i find more appealing than almost anything? performing oral sex on a man.

perhaps you feel precisely the opposite? most straight men do. and that's fine. i would never expect you to eat a food you didn't like, or see a movie you hated. on a sexual level, it's as simple as that. different strokes for different folks. as was said in Trainspotting: "it's all about aesthetics and fuck all to do with morality."

however, there is a strong emotional component to homosexuality that is different, but equally as powerful to heteroesexuality. when my first boyfriend moved to florida, i was depressed for months. i drank too much, made some bad decisions, woke up an hour before the alarm and laid there in the quiet remembering when i used to do that except that he used to be right there next to me. i spent hours on the phone with friends when he left, both men and women, going over what was going wrong, why it was so hard to let him go (because i, being a man, assumed that i could simply let him go because men aren't supposed to be emotional, right?) and why i was so mad at him for leaving when it hadn't bothered me until the day after he left.

this is something that i think heteros and homos have in common -- and i think it's also why we'd do well to talk to one another, because there's so much to be learned.

there are differences, and often gay relationships takes specific characteristics of the two genders and magnifies them, but the similarities outweigh the differences.

and, damn, if i had a dollar for every time a straight man has asked me for dating advice -- what should i wear? where should i take her to dinner? how long do i wait before i call? -- i'd be a rich man.
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Old 05-01-2005, 05:46 PM   #94
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For example, I was in Chicago a couple years back and there was a "gay pride parade," which it seemed that 50% of the people were acting like they were part of a freak show. Do they really think this is helping gay rights causes? Not a bit. This sort of thing is what's holding a lot of people back, IMO.


funny.

every time i hear Jerry Fallwell, i think, "damn, all Christians have more in common with Satan than with Jesus."

every time i watch Jerry Springer, i think, "damn, all those heteros can't even add or subtract, let alone be parents, and i can't even guess who the baby's daddy is."

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Old 05-01-2005, 07:02 PM   #95
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Originally posted by Irvine511




funny.

every time i hear Jerry Fallwell, i think, "damn, all Christians have more in common with Satan than with Jesus."

every time i watch Jerry Springer, i think, "damn, all those heteros can't even add or subtract, let alone be parents, and i can't even guess who the baby's daddy is."

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Old 05-01-2005, 08:43 PM   #96
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PS I'm not comfortable with Pat Robertson having sex, but I don't think he should be barred from exercising his civil rights because of it.
Well.... maybe just this once....
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Old 05-01-2005, 11:14 PM   #97
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Originally posted by Irvine511
this also begs the question, since marriage is still a heterosexual contract, there seems to be a "correct" time and place and situation for heterosexual activity. i understand that, and while i don't agree, i can respect it because it's logical. however, there seems to be no "correct" time and place for a homosexual to have sex if marriage is not an option for gay people. what's a gay person to do? a life of celibacy? no love? no lasting commitment?

you'd think actual social conservatives would be for gay marriage -- let's domesticate these people and reduce sexual activity outside of marriage.
I understand your point, but I think you might've slightly missed what I asked or I didn't make myself clear. Allow me to present a hypothetical.

There's a man called Bob. He personally believes that homosexuality is wrong, just like he believes pre-marital sex is wrong. However, he acknowledges that other people are free to determine their own beliefs and morality and he will not obstruct them from practicing activities that he personally does not agree with. So just in the same way as he (if he were in a position to make laws) would keep pre-marital sex legal even though it is against his personal morality, he would also legalise gay marriage and has utterly no problem with two people practicing homosexuality, even though it is against his personal morality.

Is Bob a bigot?
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Old 05-01-2005, 11:27 PM   #98
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I understand your point, but I think you might've slightly missed what I asked or I didn't make myself clear. Allow me to present a hypothetical.

There's a man called Bob. He personally believes that homosexuality is wrong, just like he believes pre-marital sex is wrong. However, he acknowledges that other people are free to determine their own beliefs and morality and he will not obstruct them from practicing activities that he personally does not agree with. So just in the same way as he (if he were in a position to make laws) would keep pre-marital sex legal even though it is against his personal morality, he would also legalise gay marriage and has utterly no problem with two people practicing homosexuality, even though it is against his personal morality.

Is Bob a bigot?
Yes Bob is a bigot, because one would change with marriage and the other wouldn't. If two straight teenagers got married his approval of them would change, but with two men or two women it wouldn't. No matter what they did they would always be wrong in his eyes.
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Old 05-02-2005, 07:14 AM   #99
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Originally posted by Axver
There's a man called Bob. He personally believes that homosexuality is wrong, just like he believes pre-marital sex is wrong. However, he acknowledges that other people are free to determine their own beliefs and morality and he will not obstruct them from practicing activities that he personally does not agree with. So just in the same way as he (if he were in a position to make laws) would keep pre-marital sex legal even though it is against his personal morality, he would also legalise gay marriage and has utterly no problem with two people practicing homosexuality, even though it is against his personal morality.
firstly, i don't think Bob exists. most people who believe homosexuality is "wrong" don't believe in gay marriage. however, if Bob did exist, his argument would be more consistent, and it would be about the time and place for sexual intercourse, not about the "morality" of homosexualitly -- that is to say that Bob believes sex should only happen within marital bonds, and he wants marriage to include everbody. so, Bob is consistent, because he doesn't demand celibacy and deny basic tax breaks and the potential for happiness from 5% or so of the population. i would respect Bob's argument, then.

however, i think it's totally bogus to even personally believe that homosexuality is "wrong." i don't understand how an involuntary, unchosen orientation that harms no one can be "wrong." why? we know why certain things are wrong -- they hurt other people, usually. simply because there is variation in the lived expression of human sexuality does not make something wrong. is it wrong to be left handed? is it wrong to have red hair? what we all have to get to, i believe, is this final assumption: there is no moral difference between heterosexuality and homosexuality. we can say that there is something objectively "good" about heterosexual intercourse, in that it can be procreative. however, i think we can all agree that people have sex for a variety of reasons, it increases the bond between to people, it's an artful form of expression, and sexually satisfied people are usually happy, productive people. i would also argue that the way probably 99% of heteroesexual sex is practiced is no different than the way that homosexual sex is practiced. 99% of the time, heterosexual sex has no procreative intent, and what we call "sex" involves much more than simple genital intercourse. how is the coupulation between a man and a woman "better" than between a man and a man?

since it isn't (unless someone can argue otherwise), the only argument against homosexual sex is that ALL sex should be between married people. so long as marriage rights are extended to homosexuals, i then don't think that Bob is a bigot. however, if Bob still believes that the heterosexual union is better than the homosexual union, or that the homosexual union is somehow "wrong," then yes, Bob has a bigoted belief.

not hateful, and i'm not saying that Bob is a bigot -- for him to be a bigot he'd have to act on this belief and treat people differently -- but that the belief itself is bigoted.
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Old 05-02-2005, 07:38 AM   #100
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Ok, allow me to preface my post by stressing that I have quite a lot of gay friends and that my best friend - who is also my flatmate - is a gay.
I have posted on one of these topics before and I have regular discussions about these very subjects with my friends.

I find the matter extremely intriguing, because, even with being among gays a lot, I don't understand *what* it is, I cannot put my finger on it...and you know what? I think that's the heart of the matter right there : homosexuality cannot be described, anaylized, explained in a way that gets to the very core of the feeling - that's why these threads get so lengthy, I think.

As a matter of fact, I was at a housewarming party this past Saturday of a gay couple - friends of my flatmate - and got into an interesting conversation with a gay that is - as am I - tired of the "poor discriminated gay me"-attitude he sees a lot. I see it often too and I have 1 big loud question sounding through my head over and over when it comes to this attitude "WHY?"

* Why is it such a bad thing if people don't approve of what you do/are? Why do you take it so personal? I for one, don't lead a life you'd call "standard" and have been exposed to critizism for as long as I can remember. What's the big deal? Instead of getting apalled (sp), getting angry or crawling into the victim-role : be living proof that you're as "worthy" as the straight folk by being a positive role-model.

* Why do a lot of you find it insulting when people say it's yuck to have anal sex/man-on-man blowjobs? What's it to you? Must everyone like or approve of what goes on in the bedroom? As if straight people only do the missionary pose!
I do find it hypocritical when straight people say that 2 men having sex is gross because they most likely know all too damn well that's not only performed by gays. People have every right to find anal sex gross, but that goes for both gays as well as straights then.
But either way, why does it bother you that people say it's gross?

* I believe that a lot of people are bisexual on some level, beit conscious or subconscious and the many degrees in between those two. That said, I do think it's easier for women to express that because they don't feel threatened in their femininity while they express attraction to women, whereas men might be reluctant to fit the cliché of "the girly gay" if he were to do the same.

Ramble ramble, sorry to be so longwinded, I'm scatterbrained today
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:51 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by the soul waits
* Why is it such a bad thing if people don't approve of what you do/are? Why do you take it so personal? I for one, don't lead a life you'd call "standard" and have been exposed to critizism for as long as I can remember. What's the big deal? Instead of getting apalled (sp), getting angry or crawling into the victim-role : be living proof that you're as "worthy" as the straight folk by being a positive role-model.

* Why do a lot of you find it insulting when people say it's yuck to have anal sex/man-on-man blowjobs? What's it to you? Must everyone like or approve of what goes on in the bedroom? As if straight people only do the missionary pose!
I do find it hypocritical when straight people say that 2 men having sex is gross because they most likely know all too damn well that's not only performed by gays. People have every right to find anal sex gross, but that goes for both gays as well as straights then.
But either way, why does it bother you that people say it's gross?

* I believe that a lot of people are bisexual on some level, beit conscious or subconscious and the many degrees in between those two. That said, I do think it's easier for women to express that because they don't feel threatened in their femininity while they express attraction to women, whereas men might be reluctant to fit the cliché of "the girly gay" if he were to do the same.


first, you live in Belgium. gay marriage is legal there. and, to my knowledge, you don't have powerful politicians actively assaulting gay people like you do in the United States. there's a huge political component to homsexuality in the US that isn't there, to the same extent, in Europe. this is a big difference between how social issues get played out in two different continents, and this is where i get into the whole "woe is me, i'm gay" argument because there are people who are seeking my social death.

1. there's no need for "approval," per say, but there is a need to combat homophobia and bigoted statements predicated upon the assumption of "deviance" or "unnaturalness" of homosexuality. being gay is abnormal, but it is 100% natural. the reason i object to such statements is because i view the #1 problem in the gay community to be internalized homophobia and self-loathing. quite frankly, many gay people hate themselves and spend their lives overcompensating. this is why the stereotype of an urban gay man swims in money, cars, great decorating, and a near-unhealthy obsession with going to the gym. it's like trying to improve from the outside in. and things are getting better -- gay people under 30 have grown up in a much, much more welcoming, hospitable environment, and you're seeing fewer neurosis in this age group and i think much of this has to do with the fact that there is now a "way" to be gay, that it can lead to happiness, that it can be a source of love and joy, and that a lasting relationship is entirely possible because now we are just starting to get positive role models.

2. i agree with you. i think "yuck" is a perfectly acceptable response to a sexual act that you find unappealing. there's a difference between saying "yuck" and saying "that's sinful/it makes the baby Jesus cry." and if you go back and read a few of the posts, i think most of us agreed on this point.

3. i think the ease to which women seem to float into and out of bisexuality has to do with what women find to be sexual turn-ons. to be crude, i can offer two little sayings: "men are turned on by what they see; women are turned on by what they hear" or "women need a reason to have sex; men need a place." while these are generalizations, i think they get down to how male and female sexual response is different. i'm told that the number of exclusively gay men to exclusively gay women is more than 2:1; however, many, many women are bisexual. chauvanistic heterosexual men like to point to this as some sort of objective evidence that the female body is objectively an object of sexual desire, but this is to make the mistake that women might be attracted to another woman in the way that a man is attracted to a woman. rather, women find emotional connection and expressiveness with another woman in a way they cannot with a man, and often this then translates into a sexual relationship.

again, all generalities, but lots of truth in there.
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Old 05-02-2005, 02:03 PM   #102
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Irvine, I agree with all that you wrote and true, I cannot relate in essence to the extent of discrimination against gays in the USA.
However, knowing that even emphasises the fact that gays in Western-Europe, with all the rights gained that they have faught hard for, are still having that underdog-attitude, even the younger generations. I think one could compare this attitude to the maroccan and turkish communities here, that are discriminated (less and less, but still, they are) on many levels and, in defense, react in a (passive)-agressive manner rather than engage in a debate and prove people wrong by their actions. Bitterness (allthough very understandable and even justified, imo) is not the way to make people see where they've got it wrong. It's harder and, I can imagine, very very tiring to engage in a debate (like you and others here do, for example) and I can understand the "oh sod it" mentality, but long-term, that won't help the gay community.

I know it's easy for me to say all this and I can also understand that, at some point, one could think "how is it *my* task to be on the barricades and fight for our rights, I'll just retract in my own world and do my thing". And one has every right to do so.

Lol, I don't even have a point, just stating that I empathise a great deal with your situation and that it's a fine line you could find yourself balancing on between chipping in for the gay community and having some peace of mind in the safety of your own environment.

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Old 05-02-2005, 02:35 PM   #103
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it's not so bad being gay in the USA -- most american cities have very vibrant gay cultures, and where i live, i walk down the street and see gay people everywhere ... walking their dogs, washing their cars, drinking coffee and reading in a cafe, sometimes holding hands with their partners. however, there does feel like an external threat, that outside of these urban oasises you are under assault. some of this is necessary to gay culture -- no matter what culture you're from, the sense of it being under attack by outside forces is a great way to get people to do what you want (just ask Bush/Cheney).

i suppose it is worth asking, though, at what point does a discriminated-against minority finally say, "well, we've won. nothing more to fight for"?

not sure i know the answer to that ...
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Old 05-02-2005, 02:49 PM   #104
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i suppose it is worth asking, though, at what point does a discriminated-against minority finally say, "well, we've won. nothing more to fight for"?

not sure i know the answer to that ...
It's easy: equal rights, including marriage rights that heteros take for granted.

The thing is, we don't even have most of these yet. We can still get fired on a homophobic whim. We have a dozen states that have codified discrimination into their state constitutions. As for the states that have rights, they don't extend to the federal level, which means no immigration rights, which affects me.

We have a long, long way to go, as far as I'm concerned. Sure, we might not get our heads chopped off like in Saudi fucking Arabia, but we have a leadership and population that seemingly wants to legislate us into non-existence.

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Old 05-02-2005, 03:13 PM   #105
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we have a leadership and population that seemingly wants to legislate us into non-existence.


that's really what's going on, isn't it?

go back to the closet. i don't want to know about it. i don't want to see you. i don't want to hear you. i don't want to be faced by that with which i am unfamiliar and uncomfortable. you are less than fully human in our eyes, and while i don't hate you, i don't want to deal with you, and i am offended that you equate your sexual orientation with mine.

or, to put it another way, I REALLY NEED SOMEONE TO FEEL BETTER THAN BECAUSE I'VE BEEN VOTING AGAINST MY OWN ECONOMIC SELF-INTERESTS AND NOW HAVE FAILING SCHOOLS, FEWER BENEFITS, WAGES THAT DO NOT KEEP UP WITH INFLATION, AND THE MIDDLE CLASS REMAINS AS OUT OF REACH AS EVER AS THE WEALTHY GET THEIR TAXES CUT. WELL, AT LEAST I'M NOT A FAGGOT!!!
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