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Old 05-01-2005, 06:17 AM   #61
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We are all bigots in one form or another. Our religion is better, our country is better, our sexual orientation is better, our race is better, our intellectual skills are better (We call PHD's doctors and accord them all sorts of accolades, when I would take the manual intelligence of one good mechanic over ten PHD's. I need my car fixed, damn it--see my bigotry), art is better than science, better than religion, vice versa, ad nauseum.

We are so concerned with convincing everyone our particular position is the right one. Is the person who thinks homosexuality is wrong a bigot? Sure. If that person does not do anything against homosexuals, does not promote an antihomosexual agenda, does not vote for people who promote an antihomosexual agenda and does not try to ban or change behavior in anyway, does it matter?

You may not want to hang with that person.

We're not going to stamp out bigotry in this lifetime, or I suspect, any other lifetime. What we want to stamp out, I think, are the effects of bigotry. When that bigotry infringes. Is all bigotry wrong? Probably. But more fundamentally, it just is. That does not mean we should have to tolerate one iota the effects of it.

Logic isn't effective against any of our sacred cows. What we hold on to as sacred cows, we hold onto emotionally.
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Old 05-01-2005, 06:20 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver
Many people are personally opposed to sex outside of marriage, and divorce, but respect the rights of others to do both. I've never heard those people called bigots. How are they different from those who are personally opposed to homosexuality but respect the rights of others to be homosexual and believe people should marry whoever they like?


this also begs the question, since marriage is still a heterosexual contract, there seems to be a "correct" time and place and situation for heterosexual activity. i understand that, and while i don't agree, i can respect it because it's logical. however, there seems to be no "correct" time and place for a homosexual to have sex if marriage is not an option for gay people. what's a gay person to do? a life of celibacy? no love? no lasting commitment?

you'd think actual social conservatives would be for gay marriage -- let's domesticate these people and reduce sexual activity outside of marriage.
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Old 05-01-2005, 07:10 AM   #63
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truly do think most homophobia is rooted in either religious bigotry, repressed homosexual longings, or simple lack of sophistocation
But... I keep coming back to this, and have argued it through multiple times (with myself).

There is a BIG difference racial bigotry and what is currently termed homophobia or (homosexual bigotry).

I think I speak for most hetero males, that the difference for us is based very deep, in what I think is a natural reaction to homosexual behavior (not homosexuals themselves). I don't think there is any amount of enlightenment, rehabilitation, education, or whatever that can change that.

We are repelled by the sexual aspect of it, not the people, not marraige rights, not survivor benefits etc... the sexual side of it is something we run from, and treat with a real, physical revolt.

Now, I might be wrong, but I assume it's the same for how homosexuals think of sex with the opposite sex. That their 'natural reaction' is... yuck. This is true except for the 3rd party involved here, that is ok with sex with both sexes.

Are they more enlightened, trained, mature? I say it's not about the mind, and more about the body.

But I'll also agree, that there is more at play here than what we currently understand.

Please accept my honesty here, and do not lambast me for being some dumb, uneducated hetero, without exposure to homosexuals, because that's not true.

It's totally different though, than racial bigotry -- it hits at a much deeper level.

Mark
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Old 05-01-2005, 07:35 AM   #64
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Originally posted by MadelynIris


But... I keep coming back to this, and have argued it through multiple times (with myself).

There is a BIG difference racial bigotry and what is currently termed homophobia or (homosexual bigotry).

I think I speak for most hetero males, that the difference for us is based very deep, in what I think is a natural reaction to homosexual behavior (not homosexuals themselves). I don't think there is any amount of enlightenment, rehabilitation, education, or whatever that can change that.

We are repelled by the sexual aspect of it, not the people, not marraige rights, not survivor benefits etc... the sexual side of it is something we run from, and treat with a real, physical revolt.

Now, I might be wrong, but I assume it's the same for how homosexuals think of sex with the opposite sex. That their 'natural reaction' is... yuck. This is true except for the 3rd party involved here, that is ok with sex with both sexes.

Are they more enlightened, trained, mature? I say it's not about the mind, and more about the body.

But I'll also agree, that there is more at play here than what we currently understand.

Please accept my honesty here, and do not lambast me for being some dumb, uneducated hetero, without exposure to homosexuals, because that's not true.

It's totally different though, than racial bigotry -- it hits at a much deeper level.

Mark


i think you're right -- there is nothing wrong with finding a certain sexual act, be it homosexual intercourse or blow jobs or dressing up in superman costumes, totally repellant. there are some activities i find repellant and would never participate in. on a personal note, i don't find heterosexual sex gross, just boring.

the difference is to then label such an activity wrong or immoral.

the similarities to racial prejudice lies not in equivocating race with sexual orientation, but in how society legislates discrimination on the basis of an unchangable characteristic, like race or sexual orientation. being black is not like being gay, but black people and gay people have been historically treated, both politically and sociall, as 2nd class citizens.

though i do think it's interesting to note that, years ago, and maybe even today, some people would find interracial sex, especially a black man with a white woman, to be as physically revolting as homosexual sex ... yet this is really no longer the case, Lenny Kravitz dates Nicole Kidman for a while, no one bats an eyelash; could it be that exposure to difference, like we've had with interracial couples and like we're starting to get with homosexual couples, might reduce this natural revulsion you feel?
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Old 05-01-2005, 08:02 AM   #65
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Homosexuality is a different sexual orientation than the one most of have--I'm heterosexual myself, and feel like I was born this way. Homosexuality isn't the ordinary, familiar sexual orientation of most people, thus it scares alot of people. It's fear of the unknown, and we tend to be turned off by the unknown or the unfamiliar. Just my purple tuppence's worth.
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Old 05-01-2005, 09:06 AM   #66
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How does a gay male have children of his own without having to resort to adoption?
haha. he marries me, and comes out later.

i'm kidding, i'm past it. i fully support him and his partner. it does make for an interesting point of view though, when i read these threads, because that wasn't always the case.
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Old 05-01-2005, 09:12 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
I think I speak for most hetero males, that the difference for us is based very deep, in what I think is a natural reaction to homosexual behavior (not homosexuals themselves). I don't think there is any amount of enlightenment, rehabilitation, education, or whatever that can change that.

We are repelled by the sexual aspect of it, not the people, not marraige rights, not survivor benefits etc... the sexual side of it is something we run from, and treat with a real, physical revolt.

Now, I might be wrong, but I assume it's the same for how homosexuals think of sex with the opposite sex. That their 'natural reaction' is... yuck. This is true except for the 3rd party involved here, that is ok with sex with both sexes.
Yuck indeed. Vaginas look like an open sore of disease...lol.

Quote:
Are they more enlightened, trained, mature? I say it's not about the mind, and more about the body.
Yes. We are more mature. We're not trying to ban heterosexual relations and institutions based on that revolt. Big difference.

Melon
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Old 05-01-2005, 09:22 AM   #68
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Originally posted by bonosgirl84


haha. he marries me, and comes out later.

i'm kidding, i'm past it. i fully support him and his partner. it does make for an interesting point of view though, when i read these threads, because that wasn't always the case.


aw, i'm sorry. that must have been very difficult for both of you, and i'm sure they value your support. that's also one of the reasons why i came out -- i would never want to lie to a woman, that's rather cruel (if understandable, given the past).

would love to hear what you have to say on this topic -- i bet you've got interesting angles to add.
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Old 05-01-2005, 09:28 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
would love to hear what you have to say on this topic -- i bet you've got interesting angles to add.
thanks, irvine.

maybe i should start an "ask the girl who married a gay man" thread.
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Old 05-01-2005, 09:32 AM   #70
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Do not confuse "natural" with "normal," because they are two vastly different concepts. "Nature" has wide genetic variance, even if it is uncommon. Homosexuality is "natural." Period.

"Normal," in the literal sense, means most common. In that sense, homosexuality is not "normal," because it occurs in approximately 10% of the population. But left-handedness is not "normal," because most people are right-handed. Being male and less than six feet tall is not "normal," because the average height is 6'. Being an albino is not "normal," because most people have full pigmentation. However, all of the above, including homosexuality, are part of nature. People may not like it, but you are not the arbiter of nature. God is.

Melon
Sums up perfectly how I feel.
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Old 05-01-2005, 09:32 AM   #71
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thanks, irvine.

maybe i should start an "ask the girl who married a gay man" thread.



i'd read it and ask you lots of questions.
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Old 05-01-2005, 09:32 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris

I think I speak for most hetero males, that the difference for us is based very deep, in what I think is a natural reaction to homosexual behavior (not homosexuals themselves). I don't think there is any amount of enlightenment, rehabilitation, education, or whatever that can change that.

We are repelled by the sexual aspect of it, not the people, not marraige rights, not survivor benefits etc... the sexual side of it is something we run from, and treat with a real, physical revolt.
Speak for yourself only, please. My straight male friends to a one don't feel this way.
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Old 05-01-2005, 09:34 AM   #73
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Originally posted by Irvine511





i'd read it and ask you lots of questions.
haha, ok...i'll do it, but if people start getting mad at me, i'm running for my life, ok?

*takes deep breath...
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Old 05-01-2005, 09:37 AM   #74
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i'm kidding, i'm past it. i fully support him and his partner. it does make for an interesting point of view though, when i read these threads, because that wasn't always the case.
Yeah, I think we got into a fight on that subject here once.

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Old 05-01-2005, 09:44 AM   #75
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Yeah, I think we got into a fight on that subject here once.

Melon
we did indeed. that was almost two years ago now. a lot has changed..
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