Question of the Day: Homosexuality

[BonosSaint]

We are all bigots in one form or another. Our religion is better, our country is better, our sexual orientation is better, our race is better, our intellectual skills are better (We call PHD's doctors and accord them all sorts of accolades, when I would take the manual intelligence of one good mechanic over ten PHD's. I need my car fixed, damn it--see my bigotry), art is better than science, better than religion, vice versa, ad nauseum.

We are so concerned with convincing everyone our particular position is the right one. Is the person who thinks homosexuality is wrong a bigot? Sure. If that person does not do anything against homosexuals, does not promote an antihomosexual agenda, does not vote for people who promote an antihomosexual agenda and does not try to ban or change behavior in anyway, does it matter?

You may not want to hang with that person.

We're not going to stamp out bigotry in this lifetime, or I suspect, any other lifetime. What we want to stamp out, I think, are the effects of bigotry. When that bigotry infringes. Is all bigotry wrong? Probably. But more fundamentally, it just is. That does not mean we should have to tolerate one iota the effects of it.

Logic isn't effective against any of our sacred cows. What we hold on to as sacred cows, we hold onto emotionally.

 

[Irvine511]

Many people are personally opposed to sex outside of marriage, and divorce, but respect the rights of others to do both. I've never heard those people called bigots. How are they different from those who are personally opposed to homosexuality but respect the rights of others to be homosexual and believe people should marry whoever they like?

this also begs the question, since marriage is still a heterosexual contract, there seems to be a "correct" time and place and situation for heterosexual activity. i understand that, and while i don't agree, i can respect it because it's logical. however, there seems to be no "correct" time and place for a homosexual to have sex if marriage is not an option for gay people. what's a gay person to do? a life of celibacy? no love? no lasting commitment?

you'd think actual social conservatives would be for gay marriage -- let's domesticate these people and reduce sexual activity outside of marriage.

 

[MadelynIris]

truly do think most homophobia is rooted in either religious bigotry, repressed homosexual longings, or simple lack of sophistocation

But... I keep coming back to this, and have argued it through multiple times (with myself).

There is a BIG difference racial bigotry and what is currently termed homophobia or (homosexual bigotry).

I think I speak for most hetero males, that the difference for us is based very deep, in what I think is a natural reaction to homosexual behavior (not homosexuals themselves). I don't think there is any amount of enlightenment, rehabilitation, education, or whatever that can change that.

We are repelled by the sexual aspect of it, not the people, not marraige rights, not survivor benefits etc... the sexual side of it is something we run from, and treat with a real, physical revolt.

Now, I might be wrong, but I assume it's the same for how homosexuals think of sex with the opposite sex. That their 'natural reaction' is... yuck. This is true except for the 3rd party involved here, that is ok with sex with both sexes.

Are they more enlightened, trained, mature? I say it's not about the mind, and more about the body.

But I'll also agree, that there is more at play here than what we currently understand.

Please accept my honesty here, and do not lambast me for being some dumb, uneducated hetero, without exposure to homosexuals, because that's not true.

It's totally different though, than racial bigotry -- it hits at a much deeper level.

Mark

 

[Irvine511]

But... I keep coming back to this, and have argued it through multiple times (with myself).

There is a BIG difference racial bigotry and what is currently termed homophobia or (homosexual bigotry).

I think I speak for most hetero males, that the difference for us is based very deep, in what I think is a natural reaction to homosexual behavior (not homosexuals themselves). I don't think there is any amount of enlightenment, rehabilitation, education, or whatever that can change that.

We are repelled by the sexual aspect of it, not the people, not marraige rights, not survivor benefits etc... the sexual side of it is something we run from, and treat with a real, physical revolt.

Now, I might be wrong, but I assume it's the same for how homosexuals think of sex with the opposite sex. That their 'natural reaction' is... yuck. This is true except for the 3rd party involved here, that is ok with sex with both sexes.

Are they more enlightened, trained, mature? I say it's not about the mind, and more about the body.

But I'll also agree, that there is more at play here than what we currently understand.

Please accept my honesty here, and do not lambast me for being some dumb, uneducated hetero, without exposure to homosexuals, because that's not true.

It's totally different though, than racial bigotry -- it hits at a much deeper level.

Mark

i think you're right -- there is nothing wrong with finding a certain sexual act, be it homosexual intercourse or blow jobs or dressing up in superman costumes, totally repellant. there are some activities i find repellant and would never participate in. on a personal note, i don't find heterosexual sex gross, just boring.

the difference is to then label such an activity wrong or immoral.

the similarities to racial prejudice lies not in equivocating race with sexual orientation, but in how society legislates discrimination on the basis of an unchangable characteristic, like race or sexual orientation. being black is not like being gay, but black people and gay people have been historically treated, both politically and sociall, as 2nd class citizens.

though i do think it's interesting to note that, years ago, and maybe even today, some people would find interracial sex, especially a black man with a white woman, to be as physically revolting as homosexual sex ... yet this is really no longer the case, Lenny Kravitz dates Nicole Kidman for a while, no one bats an eyelash; could it be that exposure to difference, like we've had with interracial couples and like we're starting to get with homosexual couples, might reduce this natural revulsion you feel?

 

[verte76]

Homosexuality is a different sexual orientation than the one most of have--I'm heterosexual myself, and feel like I was born this way. Homosexuality isn't the ordinary, familiar sexual orientation of most people, thus it scares alot of people. It's fear of the unknown, and we tend to be turned off by the unknown or the unfamiliar. Just my purple tuppence's worth.

 

[beegee]

How does a gay male have children of his own without having to resort to adoption?

haha. he marries me, and comes out later.

i'm kidding, i'm past it. i fully support him and his partner. it does make for an interesting point of view though, when i read these threads, because that wasn't always the case.

 

[melon]

I think I speak for most hetero males, that the difference for us is based very deep, in what I think is a natural reaction to homosexual behavior (not homosexuals themselves). I don't think there is any amount of enlightenment, rehabilitation, education, or whatever that can change that.

We are repelled by the sexual aspect of it, not the people, not marraige rights, not survivor benefits etc... the sexual side of it is something we run from, and treat with a real, physical revolt.

Now, I might be wrong, but I assume it's the same for how homosexuals think of sex with the opposite sex. That their 'natural reaction' is... yuck. This is true except for the 3rd party involved here, that is ok with sex with both sexes.

Yuck indeed. Vaginas look like an open sore of disease...lol.

Are they more enlightened, trained, mature? I say it's not about the mind, and more about the body.

Yes. We are more mature. We're not trying to ban heterosexual relations and institutions based on that revolt. Big difference.

Melon

 

[Irvine511]

haha. he marries me, and comes out later.

i'm kidding, i'm past it. i fully support him and his partner. it does make for an interesting point of view though, when i read these threads, because that wasn't always the case.

aw, i'm sorry. that must have been very difficult for both of you, and i'm sure they value your support. that's also one of the reasons why i came out -- i would never want to lie to a woman, that's rather cruel (if understandable, given the past).

would love to hear what you have to say on this topic -- i bet you've got interesting angles to add.

 

[beegee]

would love to hear what you have to say on this topic -- i bet you've got interesting angles to add.

thanks, irvine.

maybe i should start an "ask the girl who married a gay man" thread.

 

[VertigoGal]

Do not confuse "natural" with "normal," because they are two vastly different concepts. "Nature" has wide genetic variance, even if it is uncommon. Homosexuality is "natural." Period.

"Normal," in the literal sense, means most common. In that sense, homosexuality is not "normal," because it occurs in approximately 10% of the population. But left-handedness is not "normal," because most people are right-handed. Being male and less than six feet tall is not "normal," because the average height is 6'. Being an albino is not "normal," because most people have full pigmentation. However, all of the above, including homosexuality, are part of nature. People may not like it, but you are not the arbiter of nature. God is.

Melon

Sums up perfectly how I feel.

 

[Irvine511]

thanks, irvine.

maybe i should start an "ask the girl who married a gay man" thread.

i'd read it and ask you lots of questions.

 

[martha]

I think I speak for most hetero males, that the difference for us is based very deep, in what I think is a natural reaction to homosexual behavior (not homosexuals themselves). I don't think there is any amount of enlightenment, rehabilitation, education, or whatever that can change that.

We are repelled by the sexual aspect of it, not the people, not marraige rights, not survivor benefits etc... the sexual side of it is something we run from, and treat with a real, physical revolt.

Speak for yourself only, please. My straight male friends to a one don't feel this way.

 

[beegee]

i'd read it and ask you lots of questions.

haha, ok...i'll do it, but if people start getting mad at me, i'm running for my life, ok?

*takes deep breath...

 

[melon]

i'm kidding, i'm past it. i fully support him and his partner. it does make for an interesting point of view though, when i read these threads, because that wasn't always the case.

Yeah, I think we got into a fight on that subject here once.

Melon

 

[beegee]

Yeah, I think we got into a fight on that subject here once.

Melon

we did indeed. that was almost two years ago now. a lot has changed..

 

[melon]

we did indeed. that was almost two years ago now. a lot has changed..

Was it really that long ago?

Melon

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

My question: do you believe it is possible for a person to believe that homosexuality is inherently wrong and not be a bigot?

ignorance does not neccesarily make one a bigot.

those who feel it's a sexual choice may believe it to be wrong, just like they would believe other non kosher, non plain vanilla sexual acts to be wrong... fetishes, etc. etc. those people aren't neccesarily bigots... they're just misinformed... stupid... out of touch with reality.

those who are educated enough to know that it is not a choice and still believe it to be wrong are either bigots or are trying to hide their own "inner demons" from comming to the surface for fear of being outcast by society.

so... short answer, yes. long answer, not neccesarily.

 

[joyfulgirl]

I think I speak for most hetero males, that the difference for us is based very deep, in what I think is a natural reaction to homosexual behavior (not homosexuals themselves). I don't think there is any amount of enlightenment, rehabilitation, education, or whatever that can change that.

We are repelled by the sexual aspect of it, not the people, not marraige rights, not survivor benefits etc... the sexual side of it is something we run from, and
treat with a real, physical revolt.

Originally posted by martha
Speak for yourself only, please. My straight male friends to a one don't feel this way.

Mine don't either.

Originally posted by melon
Yuck indeed. Vaginas look like an open sore of disease...lol.

That really wasn't necessary.

 

[MadelynIris]

Speak for yourself only, please. My straight male friends to a one don't feel this way.

Martha/Joyfulgirl,

You're saying that all of your male hetero friends are quite comfortable with the idea of a guy giving them oral/anal sex, as well as giving it back to the guy?

Wow - I'm shocked.

 

[MadelynIris]

I don't think I'm way off on this, any hetero men here feel the same way?

 

[dandy]

i think they meant that their male friends are absolutely fine with other people doing whatever it is they do behind closed doors.

maybe the reason you're so 'yuck-ed' out by it is because you insist on personalizing it.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Martha/Joyfulgirl,

You're saying that all of your male hetero friends are quite comfortable with the idea of a guy giving them oral/anal sex, as well as giving it back to the guy?

Wow - I'm shocked.

I've talked about it at length with my hetero friends and they simply have never expressed the kind of revulsion you speak of. They're cool with gay sex even if they don't want to participate in it. Some are even a bit curious, especially to be on the receiving end of a blowjob, lol. And it's the same for me with women. I am quite heterosexual but I am not at all repulsed by two women having sex. I don't have to look away or go 'ewww, that's gross!' I can enjoy watching two men, two women, or a man and a woman having sex. What's the big deal?

 

[BVS]

I think I speak for most hetero males, that the difference for us is based very deep, in what I think is a natural reaction to homosexual behavior (not homosexuals themselves). I don't think there is any amount of enlightenment, rehabilitation, education, or whatever that can change that.

No, I don't think you do.

 

[Seeking Adam]

I could care less what people do behind closed doors, but what pisses me off is having all this shit shoved down my throat and basically being told "if you think what we're doing is wrong, your a bigot." For example, I was in Chicago a couple years back and there was a "gay pride parade," which it seemed that 50% of the people were acting like they were part of a freak show. Do they really think this is helping gay rights causes? Not a bit. This sort of thing is what's holding a lot of people back, IMO.

I feel the same way about all the hetero shit shoved down my throat all the time. I dont care what straights do in their own homes but don't need to see it all the time & they just have to display themselves!!!

 

[MadelynIris]

i think they meant that their male friends are absolutely fine with other people doing whatever it is they do behind closed doors.

I'm fine with that too. I guess I'm not making myself clear. Part of the bias is a tendency to not find it attractive.

Hence some are homosexual, and some are heterosexual.

I still think we're talking minorities here (like less than 20%, of hetero men that would be cool with receiving a blowjob from a man.

Maybe we should check kinsey on this.

 

[BVS]

I'm fine with that too. I guess I'm not making myself clear. Part of the bias is a tendency to not find it attractive.

Hence some are homosexual, and some are heterosexual.

I still think we're talking minorities here (like less than 20%, of hetero men that would be cool with receiving a blowjob from a man.

I think you are having a hard time making yourself clear. Why would hetero males have to be comfortable receiving a blowjob from a man? I mean what does that have to do with anything?

I'm not understanding how that effects bias. I don't want to picture old people having sex, but it doesn't give me a bias towards old people.

 

[martha]

Martha/Joyfulgirl,

You're saying that all of your male hetero friends are quite comfortable with the idea of a guy giving them oral/anal sex, as well as giving it back to the guy?

Wow - I'm shocked.

Don't twist our words to make your stupid point. They're not gay, so no they don't want a guy to fuck them.

They are not disgusted by gay men having sex.

What? No woman's ever given you head before? You found it disgusting when she did because that's what gay men do?

 

[martha]

PS I'm not comfortable with Pat Robertson having sex, but I don't think he should be barred from exercising his civil rights because of it.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

one thing that seems a bit strange to me is.. although everyone says its not a choice, and being a straight guy i wouldnt know anyway, what is the big deal if it WAS a choice?

think about religion. which religion you follow is your choice, and you should not be discriminated against because of your choice. so, if you choose to be gay, so what? i mean, some of you who are against gay marriage cause its not natural or something, i dont think that argument hold on its own - at all.

this is about the PERSONAL freedoms, no one cares if they think it is right or wrong, or natural or a choice, because what people do about their sexuality is nobody's business.

(i am just watching a documentary on MTV about gay couple's TRYING to get married, in boston, and there are all these old people on the streets protesting 'jesus against gays' or 'jesus says no'. idiots.)

Thank you. Whether it's a choice or not, the bottom line is that it's one that isn't hurting anybody else. If someone doesn't like it, if they have issues with it, that's their personal thing to deal with. But for some to sit there and try and expect them to "change" (which particularly doesn't make sense when you consider that straight people wouldn't want someone trying to turn them gay, so why some of them insist on trying to turn gay people straight is way beyond me), or to try and ban them from doing the same things heterosexuals get to do...that's just stupid and illogical, I'm sorry.

I dunno. I guess I'm just weird. I don't care whether you're straight, gay, or bi, I don't want to know what you and your loved one do in the privacy of your bedroom. I don't understand why some people in this country feel this need to poke their noses into other people's business like that. You live your life, I live mine, so long as neither one of us is encroaching on the other's rights/personal space/whatever, I don't see a problem.

Angela

 

[MadelynIris]

Don't twist our words to make your stupid point

Whatever. Your courtesy is noted. I'm out.