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Old 02-16-2004, 06:55 PM   #31
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Is he a socialist? No. But labels will be generated according to the US political standard of measurement.
Oh, of course. Our comments were just to point out that these standards are not exactly universal.
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Old 02-16-2004, 07:26 PM   #32
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Originally posted by Danospano
I know his words and his vocal tone make THE WHITE MAN nervous, but I'm a white man and I love the guy!
he does not make me nervous. I love how he can break things down so they are understandable. I would love to hear him preach the Gospel.

Not going to get my vote though.
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Old 02-16-2004, 07:58 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


I don't think we can do much worse than a lying, warmongering homophobic religious fanatic whose domestic policy is non-existent and whose foreign policy is dependent on the "potential" for another terrorist strike. Sorry to say, but the potential is never going to go away, as long as people have free will.

I will vote for anyone just to get rid of Bush, and Kerry fits the mold.

Melon
I wish I was an American so I could vote against Bush for all the reasons you stated.
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Old 02-16-2004, 08:14 PM   #34
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Danospano,

The current unemployment rate of 5.6% is less than at any time during Clintons first 3 years in office and is continuing to drop. The economy is growing at a rate well above 4% and economist predict it will average nearly 5% growth in 2004. Bush was handed an economy that was already headed towards recession and has turned it around.

Here are the current unemployment rates of 15 Industrialized countries:

Switzerland 4.3%
Austria 4.6%
United Kingdom 4.9%
Japan 4.9%
Sweden 5.1%
United States 5.6%
Australia 5.7%
Netherlands 5.7%
Denmark 6.6%
Canada 7.4%
Italy 8.4%
Euro Area 8.8%
France 9.7%
Germany 10.2%
Spain 11.2%
Belgium 12.9%

The Unemployment rates were reported in the latest issue of the Economist.
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Old 02-16-2004, 08:51 PM   #35
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Okay, Sting2. I believe your statistics, but I have questions.

1) Have 2 million jobs NOT been lost since Bush took office?

2) What is the average hourly wage of the new jobs he recently "created"? I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of these new jobs wouldn't support one person let alone a family of four. In virtually all of the top 15 industrialized nations you mentioned a man or woman could theoretically support his or her family with a single job. Even if Bush created another 5 million jobs, would they pay more than $7 per hour and supply medical insurance to their families? Considering most of those countries have universal health care, I'd say you have to factor that into the equation.

3) You state that the economy is growing at a rate of 4-5% by year's end. Could the economy return high earnings to stockholders yet return little else concerning jobs? That seems to be the case, does it not?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'd really like to know how you ignored these facts if they are relevant to the debate?
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Old 02-16-2004, 08:52 PM   #36
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I think that all the people who felt betrayed by what happened in 2000 will show up to vote. Every one. And they'll make sure that their friends and family do too. Bush is in trouble, and I sure hope he stays there.
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Old 02-16-2004, 09:00 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by najeena
I think that all the people who felt betrayed by what happened in 2000 will show up to vote. Every one. And they'll make sure that their friends and family do too. Bush is in trouble, and I sure hope he stays there.
I think there is a kind of intensity about the Democrats that I sure as hell didn't feel in 2000. 2000 was a "feel-good" era-election, and due to a number of factors, mainly 9/11, 2004 is anything but a "feel good" era campaign. The tension is palpable now, whereas it was almost non-existent in 2000.
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Old 02-16-2004, 09:57 PM   #38
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Danospano,


"1) Have 2 million jobs NOT been lost since Bush took office?"

Yep, but people have also become self employed or have been rehired in other fields. Unemployment was at 6.4% in the Summer of 2003. After 6 months, Bush has been able to cut that unemployment rate by nearly a full percentage point.

"2) What is the average hourly wage of the new jobs he recently "created"? I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of these new jobs wouldn't support one person let alone a family of four. In virtually all of the top 15 industrialized nations you mentioned a man or woman could theoretically support his or her family with a single job. Even if Bush created another 5 million jobs, would they pay more than $7 per hour and supply medical insurance to their families? Considering most of those countries have universal health care, I'd say you have to factor that into the equation."

In the UN measure of standard of living across the world for 2003, "The Human Development Index", which considers all of the factors you mentioned above PLUS many others, the United States came in at #7 in the world. Thats right, the United States has the #7 standard of living in the world in 2003 according to most extensive and sophisticated study on that issue.

Here are the countries with the top 30 standards of living in the world:



1 Norway
2 Iceland
3 Sweden
4 Australia
5 Netherlands

6 Belgium
7 United States
8 Canada
9 Japan
10 Switzerland

11 Denmark
12 Ireland
13 United Kingdom
14 Finland
15 Luxembourg

16 Austria
17 France
18 Germany
19 Spain
20 New Zealand

21 Italy
22 Israel
23 Portugal
24 Greece
25 Cyprus

26 Hong Kong, China (SAR)
27 Barbados
28 Singapore
29 Slovenia
30 Korea, Rep. of




"3) You state that the economy is growing at a rate of 4-5% by year's end. Could the economy return high earnings to stockholders yet return little else concerning jobs? That seems to be the case, does it not?"


Actually the economy is already growing at a rate that is over 4% as we speak and will potentially average as much as 5% in growth through out 2004. It is impossible for the economy to continue to sustain such a high rate of growth without hiring more workers. Just look at what happened in the 1990s. By 1999, the United States was suffering such a labor shortage that companies were trying to hire students in Europe to come over for the summer and work. The labor shortage eventually caused so much wage pressure that inflation started to rise. What was the unemployment level that caused all this? It was around 4%. Were currently at 5.6% and dropping. 4% is not far off and is the lowest unemployment rate the country has ever experienced.
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Old 02-17-2004, 12:19 AM   #39
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1) You neglected to account for the individuals who are not included in the unemployment index, because they've given up on looking for work. If 7 million people are qualified as unemployed that means that 7 million have applied for either welfare, unemployment, or other programs that classify them as such. If someone whose been without work and doesn't see likihood of landed a job, they often quite showing up to the unemployment office. Therefore, 7 million would traslate to roughly 9-10 million unemployed. If you need proof of this scenerio, I'll dig it up for you.

2) The average worker in Germany, France, Canada, Spain, Italy, and Britain gets a month of vacation per year.
Need I mention universal health care?
Need I mention that most European countries average work week consists of no more than 35 hours per week?
You seem to be equating quality of life to how much MONEY a person produces. Health, in my opinon, is the most significant aspect of life when refering to quality. These other countries have us beat by a mile.

3) I don't claim to believe everything I've heard on the corporately owned media, but I've heard the phrase "jobless recovery" thrown around quite a bit in the last few months. Now, don't these people usually trumpted good fiscal news? Wouldn't the fact that they're trumpting bad news, make that news inescapable, and therefore 99% fool-proof?
The stock market went from nearly 6,000 points to nearly 11,000 points. It nearly doubled, yet the number of jobs increased by a paultry 200,000 or so? That spells one of two things, and the only option is denial on your part.
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Old 02-17-2004, 03:04 AM   #40
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Pfft... Norway/Iceland/Sweden ahead of Australia? Only if you prefer the freezing cold over barbeques, beer and the beach I guess.

Melon, nice summary of Bush. That is exactly the way he is seen by 99.99% of the world outside the US. It is seen as simply amazing that someone like that could be voted in once. It's the 2000's.

For those asking more about the Australian elections...

Yes you can do what is called a 'donkey' vote, show up, get your named ticked off and then just scribble "F*ck capitalism!" on the ballot paper and walk out without actually voting for anybody. That's your "I don't care for any of the candidates" vote and a very, very small % of votes count as "donkey" votes (remember genuine accidental mistakes that 'ruin' the ballot count as donkey votes as well).

The truth is, it's not hard to get out of doing compulsory voting here either. If you don't show, you get a letter asking why, and threatening the fine (about the same level as a parking fine). All you have to say is something like "religious reasons" and it's cool. But still, the point is, we have probably 95% voting compared to the US at, what, 30%? People do put more thought into it.
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Old 02-17-2004, 09:39 AM   #41
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Danospano,

"1) You neglected to account for the individuals who are not included in the unemployment index, because they've given up on looking for work. If 7 million people are qualified as unemployed that means that 7 million have applied for either welfare, unemployment, or other programs that classify them as such. If someone whose been without work and doesn't see likihood of landed a job, they often quite showing up to the unemployment office. Therefore, 7 million would traslate to roughly 9-10 million unemployed. If you need proof of this scenerio, I'll dig it up for you."

I know what it is, Longterm Unemployment. The UNDP has statistics on this and the USA is lower than most European country's when it comes to Longterm Unemployment.

"2) The average worker in Germany, France, Canada, Spain, Italy, and Britain gets a month of vacation per year.
Need I mention universal health care?
Need I mention that most European countries average work week consists of no more than 35 hours per week?
You seem to be equating quality of life to how much MONEY a person produces. Health, in my opinon, is the most significant aspect of life when refering to quality. These other countries have us beat by a mile."

The United Nations statistics on Standard of living are not simply based on MONEY! MONEY is only one factor out of nearly a hundred that they consider.

Healthcare is a major factor in the statistics but not the only one. Education is another big one. When all these statisitcs are considered together, the United States currently has a standard of living that is #7 in the world! Higher than Japan, Germany, United Kingdom, France, or Ireland.

"3) I don't claim to believe everything I've heard on the corporately owned media, but I've heard the phrase "jobless recovery" thrown around quite a bit in the last few months. Now, don't these people usually trumpted good fiscal news? Wouldn't the fact that they're trumpting bad news, make that news inescapable, and therefore 99% fool-proof?
The stock market went from nearly 6,000 points to nearly 11,000 points. It nearly doubled, yet the number of jobs increased by a paultry 200,000 or so? That spells one of two things, and the only option is denial on your part."

I'm not the one in denial. Unemployment is a LAGGING INDICATOR of economic growth. Simply go to the last recession the USA had back in 1991 and study the economic growth rates and the time it took for job growth to catch up to the growth rate.

The Unemployment rate has dropped by a full precentage point over the past 6 months, not good news for Democrats. It will also continue to drop throughout 2004 as economic growth continues. Good for American citizens, bad for Democratic candidates running for President.
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:49 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


I don't think we can do much worse than a lying, warmongering homophobic religious fanatic whose domestic policy is non-existent and whose foreign policy is dependent on the "potential" for another terrorist strike. Sorry to say, but the potential is never going to go away, as long as people have free will.

I will vote for anyone just to get rid of Bush, and Kerry fits the mold.

Melon


And I think Kerry can beat Bush. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Old 02-17-2004, 12:48 PM   #43
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And I think Kerry can beat Bush. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
the little train that could....

I think I can I think I can
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Old 02-17-2004, 02:21 PM   #44
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl




And I think Kerry can beat Bush. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Me too.
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Old 02-17-2004, 02:22 PM   #45
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Do any of you really like him and trust him or is it just the 'anybody but Bush' thing? Well, you all have your reasons. But me, I can't force myself to pull the lever for a man who approves of the slaughter of the unborn (for reasons other than rape and incest and health) That's my cause. Abortion is not a 'choice' any more than it's a 'choice' to shoot somebody in tthe head. It's cold blooded, premeditated murder and I won't vote for anyone who supports it. But unlike the rest of you, I don't believe in the 'anybody but' thing because it's a stupid and irresponisible way to choose your next leader. So I will sit home on election day and ignore the TV and give up on this nation.
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