Question about the Mel Gibson movie The Passion - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-17-2006, 10:00 AM   #46
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,494
Local Time: 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


No, we Christians didn't "forget".

The charge of anti-Semitism on a movie (or play or story, for that matter) that has a cast of primarily Jewish characters (some protagonist, some antagonist) is without merit.


well, there was no anti-Semitism without Christians, and i did say "throughout the centuries."

the charge of anti-Semitism on Mel Gibson's "The Passion" has much merit, particularly when one gets into the history of Passion Plays in Europe. it's not about having Jews as good guys or bad guys, it's about the anti-Semetic iconography that Gibson draws upon in order to emotionally bludgeon the audience and create even more sympathy for his protagonist (as if being flayed alive wasn't enough). the way the Jews are portrayed in the film -- conspirators, they get the strongmen to do their dirty work -- is analagous to traditional anti-Semetic fears that have a long history in Europe, that Jews are secretly powerful, clannish, and capable of manipulating world events in clandestine ways. we can see this in nativist American charges of Jews controlling Hollywood or the "liberal media" all the way to the view of Israel controlling American foreign policy.
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 05-17-2006, 05:41 PM   #47
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 04:40 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
the charge of anti-Semitism on Mel Gibson's "The Passion" has much merit, particularly when one gets into the history of Passion Plays in Europe. it's not about having Jews as good guys or bad guys, it's about the anti-Semetic iconography that Gibson draws upon in order to emotionally bludgeon the audience and create even more sympathy for his protagonist (as if being flayed alive wasn't enough). the way the Jews are portrayed in the film -- conspirators, they get the strongmen to do their dirty work -- is analagous to traditional anti-Semetic fears that have a long history in Europe, that Jews are secretly powerful, clannish, and capable of manipulating world events in clandestine ways. we can see this in nativist American charges of Jews controlling Hollywood or the "liberal media" all the way to the view of Israel controlling American foreign policy.
Now you've imputed the claim of anti-Semitism for the Passion Plays on the movie.

To validate such a charge, you've got to deal with two issues. First, is the source material - the Gospels - anti-Semitic on its face?

Second, with the charge supported with a claim based on the negative characterization of the story's antagonists, can such a claim be supported when a number of primary characters are Jewish and are portrayed in a positive light?

I don't think you can lay such a significant charge based on generalizations of Passion Plays, media control and foreign policy influence.
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 05-17-2006, 06:52 PM   #48
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,494
Local Time: 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Now you've imputed the claim of anti-Semitism for the Passion Plays on the movie.

To validate such a charge, you've got to deal with two issues. First, is the source material - the Gospels - anti-Semitic on its face?

Second, with the charge supported with a claim based on the negative characterization of the story's antagonists, can such a claim be supported when a number of primary characters are Jewish and are portrayed in a positive light?

I don't think you can lay such a significant charge based on generalizations of Passion Plays, media control and foreign policy influence.


the movie is a Passion Play. hence, "the Passion." it is meant to be a cinematic version of the passion plays held throughout European history. often following Passion plays, anti-Semetic violence broke out.

1. the Gospels in and of themselves are not inherently anti-Semetic, but those who use the Gospels as source material to justify convenient hatreds and then feel virtous about them (which sounds very familiar) are indeed anti-Semetic. the Gospels, independent of subjective interpretation, aren't anti-Semetic, but they certainly become sources of inspiration for anti-Semitism.

2. the sympathetic Jewish characters are "Jewish" in name only, and they are not visually drawn as stereotypical, fantasy Jews in the way that the antagonistic characters clearly are. in fact, Jesus, despite the dark hair, has readily distinguishable Aryan features (and a hot bod). it really seems quite obvious to me (and to many viewers) that the Jewish high priests are depicted hissing, worrying about money, calling for blood -- the anti-Semetic charge lies in the fact that Gibson calls upon centuries old anti-Semetic iconography to delinate between the Good Jews and the Bad Jews.

you've missed the point of my bringing in media influence and foreign policy. anti-Semetic interpretations of Jews as in control of things like foriegn policy and the media draw upon the same cesspool as Gibson draws upon.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 05-17-2006, 09:03 PM   #49
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 04:40 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
the movie is a Passion Play. hence, "the Passion." it is meant to be a cinematic version of the passion plays held throughout European history. often following Passion plays, anti-Semetic violence broke out.

1. the Gospels in and of themselves are not inherently anti-Semetic, but those who use the Gospels as source material to justify convenient hatreds and then feel virtous about them (which sounds very familiar) are indeed anti-Semetic. the Gospels, independent of subjective interpretation, aren't anti-Semetic, but they certainly become sources of inspiration for anti-Semitism.

2. the sympathetic Jewish characters are "Jewish" in name only, and they are not visually drawn as stereotypical, fantasy Jews in the way that the antagonistic characters clearly are. in fact, Jesus, despite the dark hair, has readily distinguishable Aryan features (and a hot bod). it really seems quite obvious to me (and to many viewers) that the Jewish high priests are depicted hissing, worrying about money, calling for blood -- the anti-Semetic charge lies in the fact that Gibson calls upon centuries old anti-Semetic iconography to delinate between the Good Jews and the Bad Jews.

you've missed the point of my bringing in media influence and foreign policy. anti-Semetic interpretations of Jews as in control of things like foriegn policy and the media draw upon the same cesspool as Gibson draws upon.
I agree on point 1 that Scripture can and has been used for less than God honoring purposes.

On point 2, if you see "Good Jews" and "Bad Jews" when does this translate into general anti-semitism (as is against all Jews)?

Take away the given story line, take away other presentations of the story, take away what other stereotypes we bring in, does the film come across as a vehicle of anti-semitism?
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 05-18-2006, 02:03 AM   #50
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


On point 2, if you see "Good Jews" and "Bad Jews" when does this translate into general anti-semitism (as is against all Jews)?

Take away the given story line, take away other presentations of the story, take away what other stereotypes we bring in, does the film come across as a vehicle of anti-semitism?
I think irvine has a pretty compelling case here. I think Mel Gibson could have made some different choices. Why didn't he have the priests looking like Jesus did in the film, and the Jesus looking more stereotypically Jewish? When I saw the film I didn't automatically think "ooh, anti-semitic" but then that is more from blissful ignorance, I think, because in my Christian community growing up there was nothing remotely anti-Jewish (that fact that my denomination keeps Saturday Sabbath and eats a somewhat kosher diet might have had something to do with it). Those who ARE aware of antisemitism have made some very strong points.

The portrayal of the "good Jews" as not looking stereotypically Jewish and the "bad Jews" as looking like Shylock clones, reminds me of friends I had in the South when I was a kid who said, "Oh, you're not REALLY black. You're just tan."

It's like Gibson saying "Oh Jesus, Mary Magdalene etc aren't REALLY Jewish. They're just Christians in disguise!"
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 05-18-2006, 07:48 AM   #51
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 07:40 AM
And, of course, Satan is androgynous, so anyone who doesn't prescribe to strict gender roles must be evil. In that regard, Jews get off easy.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 05-18-2006, 09:36 AM   #52
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,494
Local Time: 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
And, of course, Satan is androgynous, so anyone who doesn't prescribe to strict gender roles must be evil. In that regard, Jews get off easy.


Gibson's homophobia is legendary -- see "braveheart."

i'll respond later, quite busy this morning.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 05-18-2006, 10:51 AM   #53
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Justin24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Mateo
Posts: 6,716
Local Time: 05:40 AM
But the baby could symbolize the anti-christ?
__________________
Justin24 is offline  
Old 05-18-2006, 11:03 AM   #54
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,687
Local Time: 06:40 AM
Welcome back.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 05-18-2006, 11:07 AM   #55
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Justin24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Mateo
Posts: 6,716
Local Time: 05:40 AM
Thanks Missed you guys and gals I will try to behave this time.
__________________
Justin24 is offline  
Old 05-18-2006, 05:34 PM   #56
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 04:40 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
The portrayal of the "good Jews" as not looking stereotypically Jewish and the "bad Jews" as looking like Shylock clones, reminds me of friends I had in the South when I was a kid who said, "Oh, you're not REALLY black. You're just tan."
It is hard to press this line of thinking when it requires you to promote stereotypes to make your point.

This begins to fall in line with the recent trend of challenging portrayals of villains in film.

If the principle is we shouldn't vilify any given racial, ethnic or religious group as antagonists (even if the same racial, ethnic or religious group is also shown in a protagonist role), you need to go back and review a much larger body of film and come to similar conclusions - otherwise, selective application of the principle reveals that is done for purposes other than highlighting true bigotry.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 05-18-2006, 06:27 PM   #57
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,494
Local Time: 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


It is hard to press this line of thinking when it requires you to promote stereotypes to make your point.

This begins to fall in line with the recent trend of challenging portrayals of villains in film.

If the principle is we shouldn't vilify any given racial, ethnic or religious group as antagonists (even if the same racial, ethnic or religious group is also shown in a protagonist role), you need to go back and review a much larger body of film and come to similar conclusions - otherwise, selective application of the principle reveals that is done for purposes other than highlighting true bigotry.


what? i'm not sure i understand you.

calling out stereotypes and understanding their historical lineage (i.e., Shylock) is hardly the promotion of stereotypes. it's understanding how they operate and more importantly how the operate upon us and are used for emotional manipulation by a director.

it isn't about the vilification of any given racial or ethnic group as antagonists. the issue, here, is about the utilization of the Shylock stereotype in order to visually code *certain* Jews as bad, and then to use Aryan features, gorgeous eyes, and beautiful bodies to visually code *other* Jews as good.

i think maycocksean has a great point -- that he's not *really* black, where i'm often told i'm not *really* gay in that neither of us (i assume) are the Shylock equivalent of whatever given ethnic group we belong to and therefore we are better/more acceptable/one of the good ones because of that.

what qualifies as "true" bigotry?

what is this recent trend of which you speak? can you cite other examples?
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 05-18-2006, 07:20 PM   #58
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 08:40 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
Thanks Missed you guys and gals I will try to behave this time.

__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 05-18-2006, 07:50 PM   #59
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,430
Local Time: 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
[B]
calling out stereotypes and understanding their historical lineage (i.e., Shylock) is hardly the promotion of stereotypes. it's understanding how they operate and more importantly how the operate upon us and are used for emotional manipulation by a director.
You qualified the villain's treatment in the film by saying they were "so Jewish." But when presented with Jesus, Peter, John, Mary, the other widows, etc., all of whom were Jewish and who avoid the Shylockian treatment, you suddenly say they're "non-Jewish" precisely because they don't fit the Shylockian treatment. You can't have your cake and eat it too on this one -- your own racism comes into play based on who you think is "truly" Jewish.

Quote:
the issue, here, is about the utilization of the Shylock stereotype in order to visually code *certain* Jews as bad, and then to use Aryan features, gorgeous eyes, and beautiful bodies to visually code *other* Jews as good.
Which Aryan features are you talking about? Blonde hair? Blue eyes? Which of those do we see in the film? Whose beautiful bodies do we see? A broken, battered one?
__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 05-18-2006, 07:53 PM   #60
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
You qualified the villain's treatment in the film by saying they were "so Jewish." But when presented with Jesus, Peter, John, Mary, the other widows, etc., all of whom were Jewish and who avoid the Shylockian treatment, you suddenly say they're "non-Jewish" precisely because they don't fit the Shylockian treatment. You can't have your cake and eat it too on this one -- your own racism comes into play based on who you think is "truly" Jewish.
Well, but that's it. The Jewish figures that are idolized in Christianity are the ones who avoid the "Shylockian treatment." And that's because of the implication that they are, in fact, "not really Jewish," but instead "Christians."

If the non-Christianized Jews had been given a less stereotypical portrayal, we likely wouldn't be having this discussion.

Melon
__________________

__________________
melon is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com